How will NVidia counter the release of HD5xxx?

[Valzic]

Scali,

Funny thing, I have seen tons of Eyefinity stuff too all over the internet. That is really the only thing that has been "released". Windows 7 is not here. DX11 is not here.

Do you think that once those are released, that there will not be stuff all over the internet showing Tesselation demos etc.

nVidia will demonstrate how bad the ATI runs compared to their PhysX because ATI does not have. Why would not ATI demonstrate a Tessolation demonstration on their hardware and compare it to nVidia.. see how badly it runs? We just don't know the marketing that ATI will do because tehy don't have a product to market yet.

nVidia has the edge NOW because it has stuff it has shipped and demonstrates. We will see what the launch of Windows 7 and DX11 and 5800 add to the mix. Remeber its not just ATI marketing then. Microsoft will be pushing their Windows 7 and DX11 and so will any OEM that builds machines and wants you to buy NEW stuff for Windows 7.

 

[Razor1]

To Scali's point,

tesselation is just that its only a demo for the time being, now I know there are games coming out soon with it.

PhysX is easier to market right now.

But the masses when they see Dx11, well ya know most comsumers are sheep.

 

[Scali]

Funny thing, I have seen tons of Eyefinity stuff too all over the internet. That is really the only thing that has been "released". Windows 7 is not here. DX11 is not here.

Do you think that once those are released, that there will not be stuff all over the internet showing Tesselation demos etc.

Demos yes. Not actual games. I don't think you can really do a convincing tessellation demo.
As for Eyefinity... I really don't think that's very useful for the average consumer. Very much a niche feature.

They can try to market it all they want, but it's going to be very hard to beat PhysX in actual games with some multi-monitor gizmo and some rigged tessellation demos.

Why would not ATI demonstrate a Tessolation demonstration on their hardware and compare it to nVidia.. see how badly it runs?

It would be very stupid of AMD to do so, since the bad performance would ONLY be in their demo, not in actual games. It would just look like a poor attempt to try and make their competitor look bad.
Remember when performance in actual games was fine on GeForce FX, but in some DX9 demos/benchmarks it was really poor compared to the Radeons? People didn't buy it. If it doesn't happen in actual games, the demos/benchmarks must be rigged.

 

[egoless]

How do you market DX11 when you have nothing to show?

Easy. Flash back to the introduction of nvidia's 6xxx line of graphics cards in 2004. Remember the FarCry controversy as an example? http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/far_cry_nvidia/ So just get a few devs and all your marketing avenues to talk up DX11, and don't show the less than DX11 parts in their best light for maximum effect. Insert plausible deniablity with careful wording.

You can also attach the message to any correspondence, like vertex fetch. It doesn't have to be directly related, but just tack it onto the end of whatever you say, like vertex fetch.

When ati got around to releasing a card with the same level of support, consumers were already happy with the nvidia cards on the market. First mover perk. And nvidia's marketing efforts certainly didn't hurt.

Now go back further to the introduction of the Radeon 9700. It launched slightly before DX9 was available. It had performance to spare for the DX8 generation it was entering, and it still performed well with the arrival of DX9. Because it's performance didn't tank when it's advertised features were engaged, early adopters were the huge winners on not having to change their cards for a while. Latecomers got the benefit of reduced prices on the early cards, or they could buy a refreshed part on a proven core.

I don't recall ati with their 9700 acting the same way as nvidia did with the 6800, but maybe my memory is just foggy. But I hope that answers your question using past examples.

But frankly, to me, it seems HD5xxx is 9700 all over again. I just hope GT300 isn't an underperforming dustbuster this time.

 

[Valzic]

I agree Tessolation is just a demo. Just like PhysX was for a long time. Yes, nVidias Physx's is easier to market now.

My point being is we don't know what ATI/OEMs/Microsoft will use to market stuff to push their agenda. Tesselation is just something I could easily point out as distinct in DX11.

We know what nVida is marketing now because they have it now and looks like nothing on the DX11 front for either a short while or longer depending where your belief of the current rumors. We are just speculating what the marketing will be in a month for the other side.

For sure Microsoft won't be downplaying DX11 and saying PhysX is the way to go. Don't need new O/S just get nVidia card to run your PhysX on existing O/S. SO nVida will be marketing not only against ATI but also potentially against OEM builders and Microsoft.

Time will tell.

 

[Scali]

tesselation is just that its only a demo for the time being, now I know there are games coming out soon with it.

Question is: How soon (or in other words: before or after nVidia and Intel released their DX11 hardware)? And how much of an impact will it make?

But the masses when they see Dx11, well ya know most comsumers are sheep.

Depends on what they will see, doesn't it? I doubt they'll see much, to be honest. At least, not before other IHVs also have DX11 parts out.
Microsoft tried to use DX10 as a reason to upgrade to Windows Vista, but people just didn't see it, so they stuck with XP and DX9.

 

[Scali]

Easy. Flash back to the introduction of nvidia's 6xxx line of graphics cards in 2004. Remember the FarCry controversy as an example?

So nVidia had Far Cry to show... that's not nothing?

 

[Valzic]

One other point re games having features.

Yes Batman has great PhysX features. But guess what, the game for at least me does not tempt me. I would not buy the game if it was 100% PhysX god like and everything was done using it. Not a game that interests me. So when I choose a video card, like may others, you look at all the features.

PhysX - nVidia check mark there
DX11 - ATI check mark there
etc etc

I buy my card for 2 years or so (I wish) so marketing plays a role in demonstrations as well as games as who knows which of those features will end up in what I may play.

So demonstrating in a game is great for those that want that game or interested in the genre but becomes a feature when its not in the game you actually play.

 

[Scali]

I agree Tessolation is just a demo. Just like PhysX was for a long time.

Uhhh yea, most technology starts out in some kind of proof-of-concept/demo form. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Yes, nVidias Physx's is easier to market now.

Ding ding, we have a winner.

My point being is we don't know what ATI/OEMs/Microsoft will use to market stuff to push their agenda. Tesselation is just something I could easily point out as distinct in DX11.

Well, if you bothered to look into the DirectX SDK, there's a tessellation example based on Compute Shaders, where the description points out that you can use CS4.x on DX10 hardware to perform tessellation as a fallback path in a DX11 engine.

 

[Scali]

And I think Scali has officially answered us on how nVidia will be responding.

Nope. I speak only for myself, and I am in no way affilliated with nVidia.
I am just speculating on how I would market the products if I were in nVidia's shoes.
It could be that nVidia takes a completely different strategy. You'd have to talk to their PR.

For your information, I actually voted "They'll just sit back and watch", because I think AMD will be spinning their wheels trying to make DX11 stick with consumers without any actual DX11 games on the market.

 

[Valzic]

Scali,

Thanks for the courteous reply.

Well, if you bothered to look into the DirectX SDK, there's a tessellation example based on Compute Shaders, where the description points out that you can use CS4.x on DX10 hardware to perform tessellation as a fallback path in a DX11 engine.

Ah so nVidia has nothing to worry about when they run a Aliens versus Predators demonstration and ATI running DX11 Tessalation and Nvidia using the fall back. I was not aware that it was just as fast.

 

[Scali]

Ah so nVidia has nothing to worry about when they run a Aliens versus Predators demonstration and ATI running DX11 Tessalation and Nvidia using the fall back. I was not aware that it was just as fast.

I meant that Microsoft apparently isn't that interested in pushing tessellation as a DX11 hardware feature only, since you wondered which way Microsoft would go.

As for worries, yes I think nVidia has considerably less to worry about when it comes to tessellation than AMD has to worry about when it comes to physics, both in terms of visual impact and performance.

 

[neliz]

As for worries, yes I think nVidia has considerably less to worry about when it comes to tessellation than AMD has to worry about when it comes to physics, both in terms of visual impact and performance.

Maybe the reviewers would be so nice to enable physx on all the nvidia cards since hey, that's a feature, you should use it.

 

[Scali]

Maybe the reviewers would be so nice to enable physx on all the nvidia cards since hey, that's a feature, you should use it.

What are you getting at?

 

[neliz]

What are you getting at?

performance?

did we get this yet? (i'm in a training right now so can't really back-track)

 

[digitalwanderer]

Nope. I speak only for myself, and I am in no way affilliated with nVidia.

You mean you're not in the focus group, you have no contact with nVidia PR or their representatives, nor do you participate in any form of nVidia evangelism on any public forums? Or are you talking about something else?

Heck, I thought you worked for 'em.

 

[Valzic]

Neliz,

I don't think nVidia will have that in the script of how they want their cards reviewed. When testing out uber 129 card which beats the 399 card of ATI, ensure the PhysX is enabled for all benchmarks of our card against the comparable competion.

 

[Scali]

performance?

What's your point?

did we get this yet?

Too bad there is no public OpenCL runtime, and Bullet also supports Cuda, and no major games currently use Bullet.
So what's your point really?

 

[John Reynolds]

Yes Batman has great PhysX features. But guess what, the game for at least me does not tempt me. I would not buy the game if it was 100% PhysX god like and everything was done using it. Not a game that interests me. So when I choose a video card, like may others, you look at all the features.

Well, despite your opinion on the game it looks like it's selling million of copies and the PC version does benefit from the PhysX support. I just picked it up Tuesday (only 2-3% in though) and having seen it played on a 360 I can definitely say the PhysX support enhances the game's visuals.

 

[Scali]

You mean you're not in the focus group, you have no contact with nVidia PR or their representatives, nor do you participate in any form of nVidia evangelism on any public forums?

That is correct.
I am only a 'registered GPU developer' for the OpenCL beta program, but that in no way requires me to say anything about nVidia products, nor do I get any compensation for it, monetary or otherwise. It's just a mailinglist and access to the server that has the beta downloads on it, nothing more. I don't consider that 'affilliated with nVidia' any more than that I am 'affilliated' with Microsoft because I am using their Windows 7 RC.

My liking of PhysX actually goes back to the days when it was still called NovodeX, and I've always been a supporter of accelerated physics (my support for PhysX is not exclusive, I also support Bullet, which I've mentioned various times, and Havok, it's just that OpenCL is taking so long), even in the early days of Cell and the PPU. It's most unfortunate that it now has the nVidia brand on it, because of all the flack I now get from AMD fanboys.