How to do Next-Gen Graphics

[mckmas8808]

It's funny because it's always the same people regurgitating the same Sony vs Xbox debate. I can't believe people have actual conversations like this...

People are already debating about Xbox 720 or 1080 when Xbox 360 hasn't even launched.

To be honest I was being serious at first when this convo came up, but now I'm just having fun with it. smh at some people talking about a next-next gen console before the future one even comes out.

 

[BTOA]

I believe ideal console life is 4-5 years . Both from a tech pov and a buyers pov .

400$ every 4-5 years isn't bad at all . It equates to 100$-75$ a year fpr the early adopter .

No, just no.

You might as well just be a PC gamer then.

 

[mckmas8808]

No, just no.

You might as well just be a PC gamer then.

Yep. And if MS wants to do this they will only be killing themselves off, while Sony and Nintendo continue to rake in the los profitos.

A generation change every 4 years will only kill the industry. And we don't need that.

 

[BTOA]

Yep. And if MS wants to do this they will only be killing themselves off, while Sony and Nintendo continue to rake in the los profitos.

A generation change every 4 years will only kill the industry. And we don't need that.

Agreed.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Very odd thread. I feel sorry for A176 who had it instantly highjacked into a 4 year cycle debate. But still, it'd be nice for jvd to explain the benefits to MS in going with a 4 year cycle (which I asked early but he didn't respond to). What exactly does it get them? Plus what about devs? Looking at comments for this gen the devs were saying it's too early and they weren't happy, even with a 100 million existing consoles they can still create software for when next-gen launches.

 

[groper]

Yep. And if MS wants to do this they will only be killing themselves off, while Sony and Nintendo continue to rake in the los profitos.

So where is the problem ?
Let them do it and at the end of the day we will see who will actually kill his self ...

 

[London Geezer]

No, just no.

You might as well just be a PC gamer then.

... Why?

PC gamers upgrade much more often than 4 years.

A generation change every 4 years will only kill the industry. And we don't need that.

Why? Really, give me a few good reasons and a few market reports to prove that...
Obviously MS would make more profits if their console lasted more (only if their console was successful though), but it would hardly "kill the industry". That's a ridiculous statement to make.

 

[jvd]

... Why?

PC gamers upgrade much more often than 4 years.

aye depending on the year sometimes to or 3 times .

I already spent 400$ this year on my pc and all it was was a new dvd rw drive , ram , a sound card and a hardrive.

Next year i will upgrade the cpu , ram , mobo and gpu and that wil leasily be over 1k .

 

[Synergy34]

I don't see why not .

In 2009 the x360 could have the cpu and gpu (both edram and logic) on one chip . Most likely on 45nm tech or even lower than that

Product would continue and will most likely at that point start to be scaled back.

The xbox 3 would be made in limited quanitys through the first year as production is ramped up .


Sony was able to do this themselves with the help of toshiba going from the ps1 to the ps2 and now sony will be producing the pstwo , psp , ps3 in the same year .

Why doubt that ms can do it ?

I'm not really following MS these days business wise, but just the fact that they aren't a hardware company puts the doubt in my head. Or are they going to build plants to produce chips?
Also we have IBM making chips for everybody, but Sony will probably end up fabbing Cell on their own sometime in the future. So by the end of the cycle you'll have IBM making chips for 2 consoles and quite possible the next cycle of conosles as well as all the other chips they make. Can they handle that?

 

[jvd]

Ms just uses other fabs , they are fabless. Just like nvidia and ati and there are many fabs that can produce chips .

I don't see why people would think its a problem.

If anything it allows them to change the fab process quickly and without huge costs to themselves .


There is no fab upkeep , no huge costs for upgrading the fab , no cost for running the fab .

This is all rolled into a small premium they have to pay on the chip . However as stated many times before places like umd and tsmc opperate on razor thin margins .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

IBM aren't fabbing the chips necessarily. MS can get the design off IBM (or anyone else) and then go to a different chip company like TMSC and get them to produce the chip.

 

[lip2lip]

I fully expect Xbox2 aka Xbox360 to go for 5 years (if not 6) before we see an Xbox3.
the Xenon CPU seems to have alot of headroom that developers can explore.
I think it would be bad if Microsoft launch the next-next gen Xbox in 2009, since Sony is unlikely to launch PS4 before 2012. by 2012, an Xbox3 that had come out in 2009 would be horribly outdated.

but xbox 4 would be in 2013, not so long after ps4 in 2012.

ofcourse would only be if xbox captures 51% or more of market. what market, I dunno.

 

[London Geezer]

aye depending on the year sometimes to or 3 times .

I already spent 400$ this year on my pc and all it was was a new dvd rw drive , ram , a sound card and a hardrive.

Next year i will upgrade the cpu , ram , mobo and gpu and that wil leasily be over 1k .

Which is why i'm not a PC gamer

 

[London Geezer]

I'm not really following MS these days business wise, but just the fact that they aren't a hardware company puts the doubt in my head. Or are they going to build plants to produce chips?
Also we have IBM making chips for everybody, but Sony will probably end up fabbing Cell on their own sometime in the future. So by the end of the cycle you'll have IBM making chips for 2 consoles and quite possible the next cycle of conosles as well as all the other chips they make. Can they handle that?

Sony are already fabbing Cell in their own fabs IIRC, and that was the plan from the beginning.

 

[jvd]

Which is why i'm not a PC gamer

I may not be much of one after i get married .... so next year may be my last big upgrade.

 

[lip2lip]

Ms just uses other fabs , they are fabless. Just like nvidia and ati and there are many fabs that can produce chips .

I don't see why people would think its a problem.

If anything it allows them to change the fab process quickly and without huge costs to themselves .


There is no fab upkeep , no huge costs for upgrading the fab , no cost for running the fab .

This is all rolled into a small premium they have to pay on the chip . However as stated many times before places like umd and tsmc opperate on razor thin margins .

so basically as long as demand for cell phones, digital cameras, and mp3 players does not go up, many xbox 360s should hit the shelves.

 

[SynapticSignal]

400$ in 4 years are 75$ per year

75$ is almost the price of a game, I think that this is nothing if they give to us new technology, new generation, backw. compatible

I bet for "4years cycle"

 

[jvd]

so basically as long as demand for cell phones, digital cameras, and mp3 players does not go up, many xbox 360s should hit the shelves.

err what ?

Cell phones , digital cameras and mp3s players all use simple chps (compared to the xbox 360)

I doubt many of these products are on 90nm with soi and low k processes .

They are most likely on the bulk 90nm or 110nm processes .

At the same time however if something happened to one plant ms can hav eanother plant in another region .

So i guess we better hope no acts of god or power outages hit sonys plants or shipments of ps3s will lower

 

[A176]

Very odd thread. I feel sorry for A176 who had it instantly highjacked into a 4 year cycle debate. But still, it'd be nice for jvd to explain the benefits to MS in going with a 4 year cycle (which I asked early but he didn't respond to). What exactly does it get them? Plus what about devs? Looking at comments for this gen the devs were saying it's too early and they weren't happy, even with a 100 million existing consoles they can still create software for when next-gen launches.

hoho, I forgot I even posted this thread :neutral:

I do believe the other posters were attempting to relate to the fact that however easy or difficult the platforms are to code for, with time, it'll all "fall into place" and topics like this would never pop up again.

 

[dubyateeeff]

Not allways true. While they have less time it doesn't mean it can't be done. Ms has removed alot of stuff from the xbox 360 that cause the xbox 1 to scale in price so slowly .

Except if they do cut costs like you say in 4 years they can most likely cut it even further the 5th year. Or they wont have to rush into a new process to cut costs and can wait it out till it becomes feasible. They wont be able to reach the same low levels in 4 years as in 5 they will in 5 years. Unless they want to continue losing money on the console.

Why ? Why can't ms release a console that is cutting edge in 4 years ? What prevents them. They were able to release a cutting edge xbox 360 this year with only a 4 year gap .

I disagree with whats written in italics but for the rest... They can, I am just saying that if you are releasing consoles much more frequently it wouldnt be a bad idea to not make it as expensive because you wont be able to lower the price like with a longer cycle. And if you start with a higher price to begin with youll lose even more money and make it less accessible to the general public. Plus if you release a console more frequently then you are asking the consumer to spend more money and consumers are a cost sensitive bunch.

As for reusing old tech , they don't have to , they can simply base it on the current tech. I see no reason why they can't use a similar xbox 360 cpu with more cores and clocked higher and a new direct x ati part .

Oh, you totally agree with me, you just dont know it yet If they are going to base the next box on current tech, then that will be old tech by then, thus reusing old tech.

Also with bc support planed from the start a hardcore user can move to the new platform and still enjoy the newest xbox 360 releases .

Definetly, and it will be easier if its based on the same tech.

400$ every 4-5 years isn't bad at all . It equates to 100$-75$ a year fpr the early adopter .

400$ is a lot, which is one reason for the cheap-o-pack for 300$.