How can Nvidia be ahead of ATI but 360 GPU is on par with RSX?

[Acert93]

Though you're probably right, I can't say that that'd be a fair assessment. To get graphics the PS3 needs pixel and vertex shader capabilities, and to ease development, tools and resources and an API. nVidia offers all of this, with what's currently the most powerful GPU available. Is that a bad choice to include in PS3?

If ATi have pulled of a stunning feat of engineering and Xenos totally outclasses a modded G70 in real-world performance, that still doesn't reflect badly on Sony. Just kudos to ATi/MS for their design.

The only 'problem' with RSX being a modded G70 is in some quarters this is looked on as a failure. Apparently it's okay for MS to get a graphics hardware company to supply them a GPU but not Sony. And yes, we've had these arguments before. Even if G70 is a 'last minute' solution for a failed Cell-based renderer, kudos to Sony for changing their minds rather then sticking with an arrogant pride in their own less-effective solution.

Looking at what's appearing on screen I really can't see any complaints at all in the actual results. I really don't care who makes PS3's GPU as long as it does the job and I reckon it'll be looking god for years.

The best description of the situation possible. Even if RSX was only a moddified G70 @ 550MHz (which is an unknown and a what if) I am not sure how anyone could consider the flagship model GPU from one of the two best graphics makers in the world a failure. You are talking about the best of the best on the market--with a 28% clock increase.

And that does not even begin to address Cg and the friendly environment a common GPU brings. Wins all around.

And if a Cell GPU failed? So what. Sony would have done the right thing AND made a killer choice. Sony did not ask for a 6600GT! They asked, "What is you BEST GPU? G70? Ok, make it 90nm, make is 28% faster, and customize it to work with CELL and add X,Y,Z bells and whistles".

Now this is only a rumor, but from what I heard, there is this rabid fanbase who really love their G70. Now, it is only a rumor, but these consumers say it is the BEST GPU they have ever owned.

And as Shifty said, it is all pointless to the end of: What is on the screen. No one is complaining about MGS4. So really, what does it matter what is under the hood if it rocks on the screen?

 

[Dave Baumann]

This is little off, but... Can unified shader on gpu operate without fast edram buffer?

Yes.

Not if you want AA and HDR.

Decided to give sublime a miss and go straight to rediculous?

 

[Acert93]

Not if you want AA and HDR.

Well, that is only part of the issue. Yes, the eDRAM bandwidth helps. Now this is a guess, but I would think G70 would have the bandwidth to do HDR+MSAA at a lower resolution, e.g. 720p.

But the reason G70 and NV40 does not support AA and HDR at the same time is not due to bandwidth but with the ROP features. Using Dave's favorite word, the Xenos ROPs are orthogonal in regards to MSAA and FP10/16 support. Whether you use FP10, 4xMSAA, or FP10+MSAA is immaterial because the ROPs support all formats.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

OMG!! Please don't ever, ever, ever say that again here. B3D is way to smart to actually believe that. We know that when tapped out the RSX would have been in development for 3 years!! Stop with the TXB put down Sony hype. That buck stops here.

Dude, please get back on your goddam rocker. You're so full of shit that you read too much into what I said.

I meant that IF all the RSX is is a G70 with FLEXIO interconnects, then that would give creedance to the argument that the RSX was an 11th hour move by Sony.

However, you're such a sychophantic Playstation myrmidon that of course you blew that comment way out of proportion. You just can't stand to hear something that might even have a hint of negativity toward your object of adoration, the Playstation brand. Thanks for once again showing what you really are. Obviously, you're here not to learn anything but rather to soothe your insecurities. It seems as if my post may have been a source of irritation.

 

[London Geezer]

Do we need that kind of post in this forum? If you have personal issues with each other, fight through PM's.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

90nm isn't trivial technology, especially if you're building a 300m transistor chip. And especially with a company whose 90nm technology you've never used before.

Jawed

Don't forget the 120 MHz speed bump too!

 

[hugo]

And if a Cell GPU failed? So what. Sony would have done the right thing AND made a killer choice. Sony did not ask for a 6600GT! They asked, "What is you BEST GPU? G70? Ok, make it 90nm, make is 28% faster, and customize it to work with CELL and add X,Y,Z bells and whistles".

That's not much different from saying tha it's customised and a readily made product.When Sony made the deal with Nvidia they wasn't that of a rush to get things out.Why would they request for the best GPU that was coming out at that time?They had high expectation for their Broadband engine at that time and going with a customised soon to be released GPU is way of their target.Everyone knows that it won't mean much of a feat.It would mean a clear advantage for MS which started of development of their GPU with ATi earlier on.Now the PS3 won't be called the best right?

 

[SubD]

Even if G70 is a 'last minute' solution for a failed Cell-based renderer,

The PS3's rendering isn't Cell based? Hmmm...people are going to be in for a surprise...

 

[zidane1strife]

#1. MGS4 won't come out next year since these big games are rarely released on time.

#2. There was nothing revolutionary graphically about MGS4. The textures were weak. You won't see that level of animation in game.

Even if MGS4 doesn't come out next year, a demo could actually make it next year.

Subsurface-scattering, significant amounts of deformable self-shadowing facial skin creases, HDR, very complex high-poly model akin to that which'd be used in a fighting-gamel. Round gun nozzles, realistic smoke, high-numbers of very detailed self-shadowed characters(basically 3 or more high detail characters in some scenes. e.g. otacon, the robot, solid.). 60fps? some say it's 1080P, dunnoh if that's true either. MGS4 is not even on a final kit. The textures may be weak if you consider the environments(not the only next-gen title with such, it's unknown if they're place-holders.), but the snake model itself has very detailed textures(which can be seen when, for example, you get a close-up of the fingers, face, etc. in HD).

If ATi have pulled of a stunning feat of engineering and Xenos totally outclasses a modded G70 in real-world performance, that still doesn't reflect badly on Sony. Just kudos to ATi/MS for their design.
.

That's the thing, we're told current x360 assets weren't designed with xenos in mind, but with x800-x850 in mind. That it's easy to port/dev for the x360 platform. Yet we're seeing several dev.s seemingly aiming for 30fps, and some are said to be aiming to lower AA to 2x rather than 4x(I've not read the particular interview/article where the AA comment was said.) to increase performance. Something doesn't add up.

 

[London Geezer]

The PS3's rendering isn't Cell based? Hmmm...people are going to be in for a surprise...

What are you talking about? PS3 rendering is not Cell-based! The RSX is the GPU, it RENDERS the graphics for PS3. It is a NVIDIA GPU, not based on Cell, never was and never will be.
Cell is the CPU. It might help RSX in graphics calculations, but it definately will not be rendering anything in PS3 games.

What are some people talking about on here!? Some of these posts give me goosebumps. From the "no AA or HDR without EDRAM" to the name calling....

 

[Acert93]

That's not much different from saying tha it's customised and a readily made product.When Sony made the deal with Nvidia they wasn't that of a rush to get things out.Why would they request for the best GPU that was coming out at that time?They had high expectation for their Broadband engine at that time and going with a customised soon to be released GPU is way of their target.Everyone knows that it won't mean much of a feat.It would mean a clear advantage for MS which started of development of their GPU with ATi earlier on.Now the PS3 won't be called the best right?

Providing games people want is what makes a console the best. Period. GTA3, with all its nappy graphics, is the best seller in this console gen. Best selling PC game? Sims.

Really, the hardware--unless it is clearly "inferior" by a magnitude of degrees--is irrelevant. It is a platform for providing content. The hardware is just one part, like development tools, features, exclusive game IPs, interface, brand, marketing, game library, etc...

All performance issues aside, the benefits of RSX--excellent OpenGL support, Cg, a traditional GPU, strong ties and familiarity among the PC and Xbox community, Shader IPs, TWGWNTBP program (or whatever it is called), etc--are all HUGE wins for Sony.

The fact RSX is based on a killer GPU design is secondary. On the balance of things, NV's market position and fringe benefits are WAY more important to Sony than the actual performance. Yeah, it is a nice perk, but all the other stuff is more important IMO. That is why Sony went with NV and not ATI. NV has great OpenGL support, a great non-MS API in Cg, and has good relationship with devs. Who could want anything more?

 

[hugo]

The fact RSX is based on a killer GPU design is secondary. On the balance of things, NV's market position and fringe benefits are WAY more important to Sony than the actual performance. Yeah, it is a nice perk, but all the other stuff is more important IMO. That is why Sony went with NV and not ATI. NV has great OpenGL support, a great non-MS API in Cg, and has good relationship with devs. Who could want anything more?

It took more than just software that made them abandoned their previous in house GPU solution.Sony learned that a platform which is easy to develop for and a good GPU(marketings aside) are keys to their success for the next gen.That was what they've learned from the PS2 since everything was there including an award winning CPU that they had-the Emotion Engine.The PS3 was set to be built upon that and improved on where they had weaknesses in the PS2.

I wouldn't say that having a secondary GPU is secondary.The PS2 suffered considerably because of that bad decision and lack of proper development tools should be accounted for as well.

 

[mckmas8808]

Dude, please get back on your goddam rocker. You're so full of shit that you read too much into what I said.

I meant that IF all the RSX is is a G70 with FLEXIO interconnects, then that would give creedance to the argument that the RSX was an 11th hour move by Sony.

However, you're such a sychophantic Playstation myrmidon that of course you blew that comment way out of proportion. You just can't stand to hear something that might even have a hint of negativity toward your object of adoration, the Playstation brand. Thanks for once again showing what you really are. Obviously, you're here not to learn anything but rather to soothe your insecurities. It seems as if my post may have been a source of irritation.

Look man you said this.

You can't blame Nvidia because RSX being a modified G70 will prove that the RSX was an 11th hour move by Sony when the Cell thing didn't pan out.

How I'm I supposed to know that you meant IF? You never said it. As a matter of fact you said will prove. You seemed quite straight forword to me. *shurgs*

 

[nAo]

The PS3's rendering isn't Cell based? Hmmm...people are going to be in for a surprise...

I'd love to be 'surprised'

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

Do we need that kind of post in this forum? If you have personal issues with each other, fight through PM's.

I don't have a personal problem with anyone here. But someone needs to call this guy out. I'll leave it at that.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The PS3's rendering isn't Cell based? Hmmm...people are going to be in for a surprise...

Is this a good surprise or a bad surprise...because I really like the good ones ...not fond of the bad ones ....

I'm really anxcious to find out more on how the Cell and RSX interact. Maybe it won't be as BIG as some expect it to be...but I honestly believe that the interaction between the two is key.

I don't have a personal problem with anyone here. But someone needs to call this guy out. I'll leave it at that.

I've learned (the hard way) that "calling" one out is not the best thing to do. I should have taken the advice of others when it happened to me....but if you have an issue with a post..theres a little button that you can use that protects the thread and allows you to speak straight to the Mods. I recommend usage of it. Hopefully mckmas won't respond to your post....and when I did it...I wasn't name calling and as obnoxious as you where in that post. So if you don't mind..we should just leave it at that.

 

[macabre]

What are you talking about? PS3 rendering is not Cell-based! The RSX is the GPU, it RENDERS the graphics for PS3. It is a NVIDIA GPU, not based on Cell, never was and never will be.
Cell is the CPU. It might help RSX in graphics calculations, but it definately will not be rendering anything in PS3 games.

Sorry I can`t remember exactly but wasn`t it mentioned on these boards that cell could at least render certain parts of the frame or apply framebuffer effects ?

 

[Jawed]

Actually, now would be a good time to ask nAo how Cell and RSX communicate, specifically with regard to vertex and/or texture data generated/sent from Cell to RSX.

Can RSX accept this data and process it on the fly, or does the data need to be buffered into GDDR3 RAM?

Jawed

 

[Titanio]

As you know the numbers I quoted are officially from MS and Sony. These are the games they have announced in development. That does not mean they have publically announced all the titles or developers and likewise that there are not unaccounced games in current development.

But what you are saying about the PS3 having games in development NOT counted in that list is equally true of MS. So I am not sure what your point is?

You missed my point. The 102 titles announced are those announced for the Japanese market only. There are games that have been announced for PS3 that are not on that list. i.e. games not yet confirmed for the Japanese market. So it is not a comprehensive list of even all games announced as being in development for PS3. It's effectively a small point - I doubt the total number of announced games reaches 160 for example - but it's not the total number of announced games.

What do you mean? We are still waiting for RSX FP10 links!

Further, a lot of the discussion of Xenos effeciency has been in the GPU forums lately, ditto recently information about XPS etc. Since Dave presented his Xenos paper there has been a lot of quality discussion in the IHV boards about the benefits and ramifications of Xenos. And with the newly released DX10 info things are coming into focus a bit more clearly.

We have discussed "Xenox vs RSX" many times since Dave's article and so on. I've seen few points in this thread that haven't been argued before.

There can a benefit to these threads. The first is that a very questionable position was put forth. Second, infactual information and beliefs are raised and publically discussed. e.g. the transistor count issue not being similar. We covered that ground before, even in this very thread, yet it keeps getting repeated. And of course people see and go to other forums and spread this.

I know Shifty and I had a good discussion to clarify semantics in discussing the SPEs about 5 months ago. Even if someone is not wrong, how they say something can appear incorrect technically. And as we press forward on issues more quality information is revealed.

These threads are only worthless in regards to the trolling, the intentional misuse of information, and the fanatical defense of ones favorite system/company. You take those factors out of the thread there can, at times, be very good information--even from those who disagree.

Unfortunately, this thread has been a magnet for some of the negative things you've raised, and I've no doubt some people are reading these things and adopting the "it was said at beyond3d so it must be true" attitude. There's been some good discussion here, but unfortunately I think it's being lost (to some) amongst the "stronger" statements that are being made, that sound nicer, but ultimately are being under-qualified.

For example, we still have people raising "rsx is a g70 @ 550mhz" as if that's a bad thing

What are you talking about? PS3 rendering is not Cell-based! The RSX is the GPU, it RENDERS the graphics for PS3. It is a NVIDIA GPU, not based on Cell, never was and never will be.
Cell is the CPU. It might help RSX in graphics calculations, but it definately will not be rendering anything in PS3 games.

Anyway, to diverge from my discomfort with some of this thread - that is a statement I wouldn't feel happy defending. There's room for Cell to perhaps render some independent things in parallel with the GPU. But that's even seperate from saying something is "cell-based" - if cell was the driver and providing a lot of data in support of what was actually on being painted on the screen by the gpu, one could say the graphics are "cell-driven" or "cell-based". Or at least, it's part of a co-operative effort in such instances For example, if you've a lot of procedural stuff going on, it'd be arguable which part was the key player in that, the CPU or GPU. So it depends on your perspective, I think..

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

Look man you said this.



How I'm I supposed to know that you meant IF? You never said it. As a matter of fact you said will prove. You seemed quite straight forword to me. *shurgs*

That should have read "would prove". Obviously we have no idea what RSX will be exactly. You can't isolate one of my posts without the context of the entire exchange in mind.