Homebrew independent games allowed on PS3

[ban25]

Limiting access to the hardware to differentiate between a garage game and a $25 million production doesn't make any sense. If you have any familiarity with the PS2 Linux kit, then you know they will probably restrict access to the Bluray drive, the firmware, possibly USB, and anything else that might be used to aid in piracy.

Could users actually make use of all that access? There's a serious amount of HP there. Even limiting bedroom developments to half of PS3 would be fun and productive. The actual capacity for Indy development to invest in creating games is much more limited than larger studios. That's why Indy abounds with webgames, 2D games, and simpler games, and you don't get God of War or SOTC calibre games from Indy devs! A fraction of PS3 would be plenty enough for the sorts of games I'd expect to see, if that's what 'locking down the hardware' means.

My guess is that the full Cell and RSX resources would be avaialble. Limiting those makes no sense when you're trying to show off your Cell processor and want devs to create video editing apps etc. But I guess they'd force devs to use the official system APIs rather than banging the metal, to avoid Linux developments hacking games. It's what I'd do if I were Sony. Have a protected mode that limits which areas of system, memory etc. that users can access, but let them be free to work with those areas how they want, which would mean full PPE, 6 SPE, and RSX access. This is also important in encouraging Cell experience to further that platform if Sony are ever to manage to get Cell as widespread as they want. Cell in every mobile phone would be a nice earner, for example. In fact, that might be reason to lock devs to the API as well, for theoretically portable code. Geometry Wars on PS3 linux could be ported to PSP2 if that's a cut-down Cell/RSX system, so new platforms would inherit the software library from PS3.

 

[Powderkeg]

Edit:

Never mind, my post just became redundant.

 

[Sis]

or they could do it based on 'trust', where content got distributed out via networks of friends and the like. So you're my friend, and you can buy my game from me, and then your friends can buy it and so on and so on - and that's how it's distribution would spread out, truly leveraging the network. The game would actually get copied over to you, peer-to-peer, directly from my PS3.

Instant messenger viruses exist that function exactly like this. Contacts somehow get the virus and it spreads to other contacts.

I don't believe the problem of distribution to be intractable, but I don't think a peer-to-peer issue solves the virus issue. The best solution probably is a sandbox one, where the game can only access a small portion of the hard drive, can't see other programs (or it can read but not write), and this should/could be constrained by the hypervisor that the PS3 supposedly offers.

 

[mckmas8808]

I like Titanio's idea of rating the developer(s) of each said game. Kinda like Ebay, only download from those that have high ratings you know.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Sony sure has one hell of a network to put together in 6 months man.

 

[mckmas8808]

Sony sure has one hell of a network to put together in 6 months man.

Well it's not like they are starting the online part today or anything so...

 

[Titanio]

Let me play a bit of devil's advocate here and ask the obvious question: why is homebrew important at all? Other than being really cool for geeks, do you believe it will drive sales of consoles? Will it drive software profit for Sony?

If it was integrated into the PNP so that you could distribute your work in some fashion there, it could drive profit for them, as if you sold it, they could take a slice of the revenue ala ebay.

And mckmas, what you're asking for already exists. There are many small, independent studios building games on the cheap, and if Sony has something similar to Xbox Live Arcade--which they will--then this is covered. Basically, you just have to make a PC game first (which has free tools available today) and then pitch it to the content managers at the respective console manufacturers.

This is true. But whatever about mckmas, this isn't what I'm asking for I'd like both, an opportunity to partner with someone like MS or Sony if I or a team I've built is feeling up to it, or the ability to just code on my own stuff on the side casually, and maybe one day release it as something even just my friends might enjoy/mock The Live Arcade/PS Beyond model is the traditional publisher/developer relationship, really, just with a lower barrier to entry. It's not an open bedroom coding scene.

Instant messenger viruses exist that function exactly like this. Contacts somehow get the virus and it spreads to other contacts.

I don't believe the problem of distribution to be intractable, but I don't think a peer-to-peer issue solves the virus issue. The best solution probably is a sandbox one, where the game can only access a small portion of the hard drive, can't see other programs (or it can read but not write), and this should/could be constrained by the hypervisor that the PS3 supposedly offers.

I could imagine an app that actually loads and runs games that would be pretty limited as far as how much damage it could do if compromised. Certainly I could see that happening if homebrew can be introduced into the 'mainstream' network platform as this rumour/april's fool suggests. If it's just something that's shared between PS3 Linux users, though, there may not be such a mechanism.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well it's not like they are starting the online part today or anything so...

No but still, they have promised ALOT of stuff, and 6 months is going to come pretty quick.

 

[GregLee]

Could users actually make use of all that access?

I think so, if "users" can be understood to extend out into the open source community, and if we can get beyond just games and think of other uses for the PS3 and its successors.

-
Greg

 

[Titanio]

No but still, they have promised ALOT of stuff, and 6 months is going to come pretty quick.

Just remember that this: "Homebrew independent games allowed on PS3" is rumour for now.

Sony quite obviously has been working on the platform for some time now. The beta sdks for it are hitting around now, right?

 

[scificube]

I'd imagine the major deterrent for developers trying to bypass commission is the fact that million sellers will only make $10,000 in this model. That's not enough to pay on person's salary/yearly wage.

Id also wonder how they'd handle intellectual property? It's open to use but is it still your game?

I'm guessing the safe thing to do is make simple games and don't use any code/ideas you can't live with everyone having access to. Wouldn't this work out to everyone body being on equal turf just about anyway? I mean if you're a big studio (or a guy from one) you don't want to sell you're super duper SPE optimized ray tracing, sentient AI, quantum physics using mega engine to the public (friends, competitions, potential licensees) for $10,000....unless you have full sense 4D holographic technology that you "really" care about to fall back on I guess.

I might be missing this though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'd imagine the major deterrent for developers trying to bypass commission is the fact that million sellers will only make $10,000 in this model. That's not enough to pay on person's salary/yearly wage.

The ten cents figure was probably just an indicator that there's no minimum on price. I don't think sales will be force at ten cents a title.

Id also wonder how they'd handle intellectual property? It's open to use but is it still your game?

I'm guessing the safe thing to do is make simple games and don't use any code/ideas you can't live with everyone having access to.

Well assuming to release on PS3 you don't have to follow open source development, there's no reason to make your code public. It's the executables that'd be sold, not the source code (though you'd be free to sell that as well I guess). If they force all software development to be open source, it's a totally different ballgame.

 

[mckmas8808]

No but still, they have promised ALOT of stuff, and 6 months is going to come pretty quick.

Yep this much is true. Sony has a lot of work ahead of them.

 

[scificube]

The ten cents figure was probably just an indicator that there's no minimum on price. I don't think sales will be force at ten cents a title.

Well assuming to release on PS3 you don't have to follow open source development, there's no reason to make your code public. It's the executables that'd be sold, not the source code (though you'd be free to sell that as well I guess). If they force all software development to be open source, it's a totally different ballgame.

Good points. Thanks!

 

[Ben-Nice]

I think it is going to be very difficult implementing alot of things in the beginning since it's untested. First and foremost, people need to be able to log on connect and play a game online without a hassle. All the other stuff they can gradually implement through patches or whatever. I don't think it's feasible or realistic to think something untested is going to come out with all the features. Eventually it will though because there is big money to be made and that's what makes the world go around. Personally all I really want is

1) 1 log in ID
2) buddy list
3) be able to dowload extra content, patches etc

I'm really hoping they can implement a browser to surf the internet because to be honest my home computer is basically for music and video downloads and gaming so it would be the same thing only hopefully an upgrade to that at a not so high price.

 

[Titanio]

I think it is going to be very difficult implementing alot of things in the beginning since it's untested. First and foremost, people need to be able to log on connect and play a game online without a hassle. All the other stuff they can gradually implement through patches or whatever. I don't think it's feasible or realistic to think something untested is going to come out with all the features. Eventually it will though because there is big money to be made and that's what makes the world go around.

This is true. I'm not sure if EVERYTHING will be there day one. In the post-keynote Q&A, referring to the "wheel-of-fortune" (all the commercial opportunities for publishers), he said it didn't necessarily represent everything that would be done (by themselves or publishers) on day one. Although that 'wheel of fortune' was disjoint from the service features, it was a collection of revenue opportunities etc.

 

[MrWibble]

Yep this much is true. Sony has a lot of work ahead of them.

Unless, I don't know, crazy idea here, but... maybe they already started? You know, like they decided maybe they'd do some of the work before actually announcing it?

It's a radical concept I know, but some times I can't help wondering if these huge corporations might just be up to stuff behind our backs.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Unless, I don't know, crazy idea here, but... maybe they already started? You know, like they decided maybe they'd do some of the work before actually announcing it?

It's a radical concept I know, but some times I can't help wondering if these huge corporations might just be up to stuff behind our backs.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that Sony has put no work into it yet, but rather that the finalization of all this stuff is no small task.

 

[MrWibble]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that Sony has put no work into it yet, but rather that the finalization of all this stuff is no small task.

Without knowing how much is already done, how can anyone say how big a task finishing it off will be?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In the context of homebrew distribution, how much effort would that really be? Just a few big-ass servers dotted around the globe with an IP address that PS3 can dial into? With a bit of a PHP script to take uploads and sort them based on a few criteria?