Have MS been digging themselves into a hole?

[jonnyp]

It's funny that only the anti-Sony people are the ones being anti-BR.

 

[jvd]

I dunno what you mean. Neither can win as neither are out .

If your talking about the talks between sony and toshiba well those broke apart . and now sony is releasing bluray and toshiba is releasing hd-dvd .


Hd-dvd is supposed to come out this year and they announced a 3 layer hd-dvd for 45 gigs i believe and now this week tdk announced a 100 gig 4 layer bluray drive .

I personal don't care which one wins . I just want the price to drop like mad

 

[quest55720]

It's funny that only the anti-Sony people are the ones being anti-BR.

If sony can get the PS3 out for 299 then the blue ray player won't have affected me that much. I just don't like paying for things I won't use. I personally would of rather had a bigger cell chip, Hard drive,ram or more trannys on the GPU than a BR player.

 

[scificube]

I dunno what you mean. Neither can win as neither are out .

If your talking about the talks between sony and toshiba well those broke apart . and now sony is releasing bluray and toshiba is releasing hd-dvd .


Hd-dvd is supposed to come out this year and they announced a 3 layer hd-dvd for 45 gigs i believe and now this week tdk announced a 100 gig 4 layer bluray drive .

I personal don't care which one wins . I just want the price to drop like mad

What I mean is that there is some consortium and hollywood that will select between either blue-ray or HD-DVD.

I'm fuzzy on this but I a friend told me blue-ray had been selected. He sent me an url but I never read it.

Now I'm just confused. I know Hollywood is only going to support one format and whichever that is "wins" as the other is pretty much destined to the way of the dodo bird.

 

[jvd]

It's funny that only the anti-Sony people are the ones being anti-BR.

whats funny ?

There are two formats that are going to go against each other to be the next gen optical format for hd content .

hd-dvd and bluray . Both are back by major companys . So either one can fail and that will directly affect the ps3 in many ways . Every choice has postives and negatives .


For ms the postive of going dvd is the reduced cost and the fact that the outcome of the format war doesn't affect them . The negative is less storage space (or multi discs for more storage space ) and that htey don't have a hd optical format


For sony the postive is a next gen hd format in the system . Its thier format and it will sell more units of it and help it win that format war . More storage space for games but unlikely many will use 25 gigs
the negative is , if it looses the format they will have a format that is equated with failure in the ps3 , the drives will scale slower in price and there will be less suppilers for discs . also higher initial costs and most likely in the long run over dvd even if the format is a sucess


There are pros and cons to everything . If youthink i got any of them wrong let me know

 

[Acert93]

It's funny that only the anti-Sony people are the ones being anti-BR.

I am not for either format; I want a unified format.

That said, as a consumer, cost of the drive and cost of the media is important. I wont pay $20 for most DVDs (last one: Lord of the Rings III) and try to get most for $10 if I buy them. They are just not worth more if I only ever watch them 3 or 4 times.

As for the drives, I want the best technology, but I also want a more open format. Having a small group control such a significant product will mean higher drive prices. If NV was the only company that could play PC video games, or AMD was the only company that made CPUs that could be run on PCs we would pay a lot more. And even if those companies were nice enough to license the technology to oethers, there is that royalty premium that keeps costs higher.

So a balance between cost and technology is important. We do not need needless technology just because it is better. So the question is, and I am not sure this has been answered yet: Can HD-DVD dual layer do 1080p movies? What about the Triple layer disks? And how much will they cost?

Personally I am going to let the dust settle... maybe in 2007 when there are a LOT of movies I will be interested. But since neither the drives or movies are available at any normal retail outlet I have ever seen I could care less.

And if they want to do a format war go for it--I wont buy either. I am more than happy with my few DVDs!

 

[jvd]

What I mean is that there is some consortium and hollywood that will select between either blue-ray or HD-DVD.

I'm fuzzy on this but I a friend told me blue-ray had been selected. He sent me an url but I never read it.

Now I'm just confused. I know Hollywood is only going to support one format and whichever that is "wins" as the other is pretty much destined to the way of the dodo bird.

bluray is backed by some companys and hd-dvd is backed by others and is the format that the dvd forum wants to push foward .

I dunno what your friend is talking about .

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

It seems to me the only ones who are pro-BR are the same ones who are clinging to the hope that the cost of the PS3 = the cost of the X360.

I think that's a foolish assumption and pretty soon those very same people will have to be willing to alter their stance and tell us exactly how much of a premium BR is worth. Because the PS3 is going to be more expensive then the X360.

Sony's PR people keep making those claims, and even G4 tv keeps pushing the fact that the PS3 is going to be $500 at launch (but it's ok because it includes a BR player!) At the same time, G4 is predicted the X360 will launch at $299.

If that's true, that's a $200 premium (FOUR games) for a BR player that will have limited or virtually no media other than games available for it.

Nobody is going to go for that.

To say the PS3 having extra features, such as BR, is an added bonus is only true if the costs of the PS3 and X360 are comparable.

I think Sony saw the success of the PS2 due in part to the inclusion of the DVD player. However, as has been pointed out many times previously, DVDs were already fairly well established at that point and were obviously the future.

That simply won't be the case with BR. Even if BR "wins" and everybody agrees that will be the next HD media format, BR discs still won't be available at your local video rental store by the time the PS3 launches.

 

[London Geezer]

If that's true, that's a $200 premium (FOUR games) for a BR player that will have limited or virtually no media other than games available for it.

Do you have ANY idea of the amount of (exclusive i might add) HD material Sony/MGM have at their disposal, ready to be released on BlueRay?! Not trying to defend anyone, but saying "virtually no media other than games" is just plain and simple 100% wrong.

If BlueRay ends up losing (and it's very possible), Sony/MGM still have thousands of HD movies which will be available to BlueRay. If they want to be greedy, they'll keep all those thousands of movies (Like the Spiderman movies, and thousands upon thousands of other films) exclusive to BR, forcing people to buy either a PS3 to watch Spiderman HD, or a standalone BR player.
That's in case no one else releases BR movies, which we all know it is not the case since many studios are backing the format.

It's either going to be 2 formats, or a hybrid mess.

 

[scificube]

What I mean is that there is some consortium and hollywood that will select between either blue-ray or HD-DVD.

I'm fuzzy on this but I a friend told me blue-ray had been selected. He sent me an url but I never read it.

Now I'm just confused. I know Hollywood is only going to support one format and whichever that is "wins" as the other is pretty much destined to the way of the dodo bird.

bluray is backed by some companys and hd-dvd is backed by others and is the format that the dvd forum wants to push foward .

I dunno what your friend is talking about .

Actually I know some about the groups...right now more people are with blue-ray as I understand it.

These groups are competing for selection by the consortium which basically represents some device makers but most significantly hollywood.

That is where the win/lose scenario comes in as hollywoods approval will dictate which format is succesful just as Beta lost to VHS due to Hollywood going with VHS.

This is what I'm talking about. There will be a winner and there will be a loser even if I got the consortium thing wrong...Hollywood shall select it's champion.

If it hasn't yet that's fine as I don't really care all that much, but I would prefer the better tech if I can get it.

 

[quest55720]

It's funny that only the anti-Sony people are the ones being anti-BR.

I am not for either format; I want a unified format.

That said, as a consumer, cost of the drive and cost of the media is important. I wont pay $20 for most DVDs (last one: Lord of the Rings III) and try to get most for $10 if I buy them. They are just not worth more if I only ever watch them 3 or 4 times.

As for the drives, I want the best technology, but I also want a more open format. Having a small group control such a significant product will mean higher drive prices. If NV was the only company that could play PC video games, or AMD was the only company that made CPUs that could be run on PCs we would pay a lot more. And even if those companies were nice enough to license the technology to oethers, there is that royalty premium that keeps costs higher.

So a balance between cost and technology is important. We do not need needless technology just because it is better. So the question is, and I am not sure this has been answered yet: Can HD-DVD dual layer do 1080p movies? What about the Triple layer disks? And how much will they cost?

Personally I am going to let the dust settle... maybe in 2007 when there are a LOT of movies I will be interested. But since neither the drives or movies are available at any normal retail outlet I have ever seen I could care less.

And if they want to do a format war go for it--I wont buy either. I am more than happy with my few DVDs!

Well said great post. I don't care who wins the format war as long as there is a winner and prices are fair. I will not pay more than 24.99 for a new release movie.

 

[jvd]

If that's true, that's a $200 premium (FOUR games) for a BR player that will have limited or virtually no media other than games available for it.

Do you have ANY idea of the amount of (exclusive i might add) HD material Sony/MGM have at their disposal, ready to be released on BlueRay?! Not trying to defend anyone, but saying "virtually no media other than games" is just plain and simple 100% wrong.

but we can agree that it will be no where near the amount of titles coming out on dvd that year and is out that year on dvd . And by the simple fact that hd-dvd launches this year there will be more of that too .

 

[London Geezer]

If that's true, that's a $200 premium (FOUR games) for a BR player that will have limited or virtually no media other than games available for it.

Do you have ANY idea of the amount of (exclusive i might add) HD material Sony/MGM have at their disposal, ready to be released on BlueRay?! Not trying to defend anyone, but saying "virtually no media other than games" is just plain and simple 100% wrong.

but we can agree that it will be no where near the amount of titles coming out on dvd that year and is out that year on dvd . And by the simple fact that hd-dvd launches this year there will be more of that too .

i've added a bit to my post

 

[jvd]

If BlueRay ends up losing (and it's very possible), Sony/MGM still have thousands of HD movies which will be available to BlueRay. If they want to be greedy, they'll keep all those thousands of movies (Like the Spiderman movies, and thousands upon thousands of other films) exclusive to BR, forcing people to buy either a PS3 to watch Spiderman HD, or a standalone BR player.
That's in case no one else releases BR movies, which we all know it is not the case since many studios are backing the format

they are not that stupid .

Once hd-dvd becomes the standard and all other movie studios support it people will bury bluray and if sony tried to keep thos etitles exclusive they would just loose money , that is if it fails .

Sony is thick headed but i think they learned with mini disc that they can't do things alone and they need other companys to join them to create a market or have a market come to them .

I've heard that hd-dvd players will be 300 $ this fall . If that is true there could be a big installed base by tyhe time bluray even comes out

 

[Mordecaii]

@ Rancidlunchmeat:

In an interview with Jack Tretton, he stated the following...

GS: With the likelihood of a price point higher than what's been seen in the past, whom do you see as the upcoming PS3 consumer? A new gamer or just old-school gamers looking for the next new generation of machine?

JT: I think when you talk about pricing, one of the things that's most amazing to me is if you go back to the Atari 2600, it was $299. In 1995 when PlayStation came out with revolutionary technology, it was $299. In 2000 when PlayStation 2 made a quantum leap, it was $299. So the technology has grown in leaps and bounds, but the consumer has been given the same value for the past, what, 27 years for the same price.

I challenge you to look at another industry and say: What did it cost you to buy an automobile in 1978 versus what it costs you to buy a comparable vehicle today? So that alone is staggering.

In terms of the technology, I think the consumer grows with it. I think the same is true of gaming--that initial experience of playing Pong and you thought, "Wow, isn't this great!" It's still the same visceral experience, although in much more depth and much more technology than you could ever imagine back then. But today it's still the very same experience. It's interaction with technology. I think the consumer just kind of grows with it.

So to answer your question relative to demographics, I think what we've done with PlayStation is we've expanded the demographic greatly--and because of the technology, we didn't alienate the core audience of 12- to 17-year-old boys. We've expanded it to everybody.

I think what this new technology does is it just continues to open the door to basically every potential living human being on the planet. I think there are realistic limitations, but outside of infants and the infirm, technology means that there's going to be something there for everybody. As the technology progresses, more and more people get interested: young, old, male, female.

It sounds completely feasible to me that they are planning a $299 price point.

 

[jvd]

It also sounds like they are trying to target more people and thus charge more for having these added things


Its hard to say . We will most likely find out when the x360 launches .

 

[quest55720]

@ Rancidlunchmeat:

In an interview with Jack Tretton, he stated the following...

GS: With the likelihood of a price point higher than what's been seen in the past, whom do you see as the upcoming PS3 consumer? A new gamer or just old-school gamers looking for the next new generation of machine?

JT: I think when you talk about pricing, one of the things that's most amazing to me is if you go back to the Atari 2600, it was $299. In 1995 when PlayStation came out with revolutionary technology, it was $299. In 2000 when PlayStation 2 made a quantum leap, it was $299. So the technology has grown in leaps and bounds, but the consumer has been given the same value for the past, what, 27 years for the same price.

I challenge you to look at another industry and say: What did it cost you to buy an automobile in 1978 versus what it costs you to buy a comparable vehicle today? So that alone is staggering.

In terms of the technology, I think the consumer grows with it. I think the same is true of gaming--that initial experience of playing Pong and you thought, "Wow, isn't this great!" It's still the same visceral experience, although in much more depth and much more technology than you could ever imagine back then. But today it's still the very same experience. It's interaction with technology. I think the consumer just kind of grows with it.

So to answer your question relative to demographics, I think what we've done with PlayStation is we've expanded the demographic greatly--and because of the technology, we didn't alienate the core audience of 12- to 17-year-old boys. We've expanded it to everybody.

I think what this new technology does is it just continues to open the door to basically every potential living human being on the planet. I think there are realistic limitations, but outside of infants and the infirm, technology means that there's going to be something there for everybody. As the technology progresses, more and more people get interested: young, old, male, female.

It sounds completely feasible to me that they are planning a $299 price point.

I hope you are right with the 299 price point. I am still sad they are skipping out on including a harddrive this time.

 

[jonnyp]

It's funny that only the anti-Sony people are the ones being anti-BR.

whats funny ?

There are two formats that are going to go against each other to be the next gen optical format for hd content .

hd-dvd and bluray . Both are back by major companys . So either one can fail and that will directly affect the ps3 in many ways . Every choice has postives and negatives .


For ms the postive of going dvd is the reduced cost and the fact that the outcome of the format war doesn't affect them . The negative is less storage space (or multi discs for more storage space ) and that htey don't have a hd optical format


For sony the postive is a next gen hd format in the system . Its thier format and it will sell more units of it and help it win that format war . More storage space for games but unlikely many will use 25 gigs
the negative is , if it looses the format they will have a format that is equated with failure in the ps3 , the drives will scale slower in price and there will be less suppilers for discs . also higher initial costs and most likely in the long run over dvd even if the format is a sucess


There are pros and cons to everything . If youthink i got any of them wrong let me know

Well from what I've read of you before, you always seem really negative towards blu-ray for no apparent reason other than it's Sony's format.

And quest55720 the fact that you expect the BR-playback in the PS3 to be subpar, IMHO is a little too early to tell and make a judgement on just yet.

 

[jvd]

Well from what I've read of you before, you always seem really negative towards blu-ray for no apparent reason other than it's Sony's format.

And quest55720 the fact that you expect the BR-playback in the PS3 to be subpar, IMHO is a little too early to tell and make a judgement on just yet.

Ah I see .

there are two formats . You can read my views on them . Obviously buray has the space advantage but hd-dvd has the cost advantage .

In regards to consoles since this is a console forum you can read my views on the reasons why bluray is a good idea and bad idea at the same time .

 

[quest55720]

It's funny that only the anti-Sony people are the ones being anti-BR.

whats funny ?

There are two formats that are going to go against each other to be the next gen optical format for hd content .

hd-dvd and bluray . Both are back by major companys . So either one can fail and that will directly affect the ps3 in many ways . Every choice has postives and negatives .


For ms the postive of going dvd is the reduced cost and the fact that the outcome of the format war doesn't affect them . The negative is less storage space (or multi discs for more storage space ) and that htey don't have a hd optical format


For sony the postive is a next gen hd format in the system . Its thier format and it will sell more units of it and help it win that format war . More storage space for games but unlikely many will use 25 gigs
the negative is , if it looses the format they will have a format that is equated with failure in the ps3 , the drives will scale slower in price and there will be less suppilers for discs . also higher initial costs and most likely in the long run over dvd even if the format is a sucess


There are pros and cons to everything . If youthink i got any of them wrong let me know

Well from what I've read of you before, you always seem really negative towards blu-ray for no apparent reason other than it's Sony's format.

And quest55720 the fact that you expect the BR-playback in the PS3 to be subpar, IMHO is a little too early to tell and make a judgement on just yet.

I just don't see a multifunction device doing as good of a job as a dedicated unit. The Xbox and PS2 both had subpar or worse DVD playback.

I don't think it is wrong to be worried about a format that is controlled by so few companys.
.