Have MS been digging themselves into a hole?
- Thread starter Shifty Geezer
- Start date
- Status
Visually, if MS can supply 4xAA free of charge, Ithink they'll have the upper hand. However, 1080p scaled down will also provide good quality, so the 1080p target for Sony also represents AA on their part I guess :?
Given a choice I'd probably go with 720 at 4xAA than 1080p at 0 AA. Heck, I'm watching TV while writing this at standard PAL resolution, but the huge amount of AA means I can make out a single hair on a person's head or the subtle texturing of their fleece jacket. If consoles could output this quality of visual I don't care what the resolution is!
Given a choice I'd probably go with 720 at 4xAA than 1080p at 0 AA. Heck, I'm watching TV while writing this at standard PAL resolution, but the huge amount of AA means I can make out a single hair on a person's head or the subtle texturing of their fleece jacket. If consoles could output this quality of visual I don't care what the resolution is!
First off, I like the general civilized discussion we are having. Everybody gives his opinion and we talk about them and share thought and ideas.
Now, would like to know what are we discussing here(jokingly). The thing is, everything that X2 supports, PS3 supports. We are all clear on that. Now, my entire suggestion is that PS3 offers ‘extra’ over what X2 offers. Where is the harm in that? It is like when DS fans started the pros and cons between optical media and cards. Well there isn’t anything to discuss since PSP supports cards (memory sticks) and games could be used on them. Now on to the point, PSP has an ‘extra’ option of using disks. The same implies for PS3 and X2. X2 is a great system no doubt as is Rev. I am talking about the ‘extra’ options that both of them do not have.
almost certainly PS3 and X2 will have the same price point. So why don’t you want more for what you pay? You can play PS3 on analog TV. You never have to use online. And you never need to watch an HD movie. You like DVD movies, then watch them on PS3. you happen to come across a new HD movie and you want to try this new format and see what’s all the buzz is about, then you have the freedom to do so.
Again, I point out to the fact that I merely have more options with PS3 whether we end up using them or not. Since we may very well end up paying the same then what do we have to lose?
Just to answer some quotes:
Console upgrades? Proven to always be a big failure.
hehe, are we really looking for sites that agree with us or are we being reasonable?
when you read IGN comments on PS3 demos the seem to sound like average joe posters in everyday forums. They use phrases like “no why in hell!â€, “it will take 7 years to do that†and such. But have you read the suggested sites? They have exclusive interviews and fair takes. They don’t talk like kids and they don’t trash a system.
And yes, X2 and Rev support HD games, but they don’t support anything else HD (mainly movies).
Last and least:
To a688: grow up kid!
Now, would like to know what are we discussing here(jokingly). The thing is, everything that X2 supports, PS3 supports. We are all clear on that. Now, my entire suggestion is that PS3 offers ‘extra’ over what X2 offers. Where is the harm in that? It is like when DS fans started the pros and cons between optical media and cards. Well there isn’t anything to discuss since PSP supports cards (memory sticks) and games could be used on them. Now on to the point, PSP has an ‘extra’ option of using disks. The same implies for PS3 and X2. X2 is a great system no doubt as is Rev. I am talking about the ‘extra’ options that both of them do not have.
almost certainly PS3 and X2 will have the same price point. So why don’t you want more for what you pay? You can play PS3 on analog TV. You never have to use online. And you never need to watch an HD movie. You like DVD movies, then watch them on PS3. you happen to come across a new HD movie and you want to try this new format and see what’s all the buzz is about, then you have the freedom to do so.
Again, I point out to the fact that I merely have more options with PS3 whether we end up using them or not. Since we may very well end up paying the same then what do we have to lose?
Just to answer some quotes:
Console upgrades? Proven to always be a big failure.
hehe, are we really looking for sites that agree with us or are we being reasonable?
when you read IGN comments on PS3 demos the seem to sound like average joe posters in everyday forums. They use phrases like “no why in hell!â€, “it will take 7 years to do that†and such. But have you read the suggested sites? They have exclusive interviews and fair takes. They don’t talk like kids and they don’t trash a system.
And yes, X2 and Rev support HD games, but they don’t support anything else HD (mainly movies).
Last and least:
To a688: grow up kid!
Well lets break it down
Who said same price point ? The x360 will be out for 6 months mass produced so its likely that the x360 will be much cheaper to make by the time the ps3 is released . WE don't know right now but looking at transistor counts it seems like ms has the edge and a 6 months or so to get yields up high
Now sony put in a bluray drive . Which is great in some ways and bad in others .
If bluray takes off all is good . If it fails sony will have a dead end drive in the system . The well of hd-movies will dry up and it will no longer offer you a hd- optical solution .
If games are released on bluray hten sony must allways keep a bluray drive in it . They could go dual drive with a hd-dvd / bluray drive if hd-dvd takes off . But that will add $$$ to the console price .
Ms on the other hand can wait 2 years , see what format wins or is winning and put out a higher sku of a media edition of the x360 with a bigger hardrive / tivo functions and a hd-dvd / bluray drive .
ALl the while selling the standard dvd version at a reduced cost . So those who wnat a hd-dvd system in 2 years or so when there is a large amount of content they can choose a x360 with hd drive or a ps3 with hd-drive or a x360 with dvd at a lower cost .
On the other hand ms is packing in a hdd . Sony doesn't seem to be doing that . To me a hardrive helps with games in much more important ways than a bluray or hd-dvd drive .
The hardrive speeds up loading , allows you to download new lvls or models .
With storage space on the bluray u can allways get a second dvd . Yes it be annoying watching a 2 hour movie to stop half way through and change it . But in a 20-40 hour game changing a disc is not a big deal . I'm sure u need to get up at least once to use the bathroom
Who said same price point ? The x360 will be out for 6 months mass produced so its likely that the x360 will be much cheaper to make by the time the ps3 is released . WE don't know right now but looking at transistor counts it seems like ms has the edge and a 6 months or so to get yields up high
Now sony put in a bluray drive . Which is great in some ways and bad in others .
If bluray takes off all is good . If it fails sony will have a dead end drive in the system . The well of hd-movies will dry up and it will no longer offer you a hd- optical solution .
If games are released on bluray hten sony must allways keep a bluray drive in it . They could go dual drive with a hd-dvd / bluray drive if hd-dvd takes off . But that will add $$$ to the console price .
Ms on the other hand can wait 2 years , see what format wins or is winning and put out a higher sku of a media edition of the x360 with a bigger hardrive / tivo functions and a hd-dvd / bluray drive .
ALl the while selling the standard dvd version at a reduced cost . So those who wnat a hd-dvd system in 2 years or so when there is a large amount of content they can choose a x360 with hd drive or a ps3 with hd-drive or a x360 with dvd at a lower cost .
On the other hand ms is packing in a hdd . Sony doesn't seem to be doing that . To me a hardrive helps with games in much more important ways than a bluray or hd-dvd drive .
The hardrive speeds up loading , allows you to download new lvls or models .
With storage space on the bluray u can allways get a second dvd . Yes it be annoying watching a 2 hour movie to stop half way through and change it . But in a 20-40 hour game changing a disc is not a big deal . I'm sure u need to get up at least once to use the bathroom
nintendo has been getting away with it since the snes
as far as games go I don't see the using much more space and since cgi is what takes up most of the disc space now I hope to see cutscenes done in the engines since graphics will be so good
as far as the other extras sony offers like media card reader what are they for they won't have a funtion without a hardrive, besides looking at pictures on tv, unless you can use it for a custom soundtrack but thats nothing new
pegisys said:
and they are failures: Philips CD anyone?and others like the extra RAM add-on, Dreamcast's DVD reader and so on.
the only successful add-on is EyeToy and possiblye the network adaptor for PS2. even PS2's 40G HDD was a huge failiur (thou it is much larger than Xbox's 8G).
about including an HDD are we positively sure X2 will indeed come with a standerd HDD out of the box? because they were hurt heavely by it last time. that is why we are hearing that both PS3 and X2 will supply HDD with various capacities as add-ons. by doing that, you can control your spending depending on supply and demand; the more demand the more you make, the less demand the less you make, thus minimizing loss risks.
I do see HDD as important for online functionality. where else are you going to store all those downloadable demos, trailers and everything else?
also, due to the fact that both HDDs for PS2 and Xbox were failiurs, Sony had the choice of stopping production and thus cutting losses. MS doesn't have that option and has to keep making them despite being the No.1 reason for their loss. by that I agree on the notion of having HDDs as optional.
having said that, X2 and PS3 being so multimedia centered, it is hard to imagine any of them not having an in-built HDD as standard.
hmm... interesting
quest55720
Regular
z said:
The ram pack for the N64 was pretty damn successfull upgrade. The dual shock was a pretty damn successfull upgrade. The genesis 6 button pad was a damn successfull upgrade. Upgrades can work if they are smart an thought out.
If I am spending 2k on a HD TV and 30 bucks a HD-DVD format I will use a stand alone player. I doubt the PS3 will play Blueray discs as well as a standalone player.
I would say the Xbox harddrive was successfull just by the number of live users. Hell not having to spend 30 bucks on a memory card made the hard drive successfull to me. Then add to the fact I could rip my own sound tracks has made the harddrive something I don't want to live with out next gen.
Uh, no there's quite a few 1080 TV's out there from Samsung, Sharp, and Panasonic. The inards that make up the Qualia 1080 gear is scheduled to go into Sony's consumer lineup by the end of the year. There's already a big push in the CE industry for 1080 with regards to fixed-pixel displays, so you'll be seeing a lot more of them at the end of this year and into next year...
Yeah there is... If you want to watch a pixel exact 1080i movie on a fixed-pixel set, you're going to want a 1080 set.
Again wrong... TV's are quite adept at downscaling. Upscaling is where they suffer. Also you're wrong about 720 support in 2008. Assuming you're speaking of the US, there's only one major network that does 720p (and the push it for sports). Everybody else (including satellite and cable providers) are going more for 1080i because of the less stringent broadcast bandwidth requirements for the signal amongst other things. Also most cable provider 1080 signals (and MS WMV-HD content) aren't even 1920, they're typically 1440 with 3/4 aspect non-square pixels.
Most of the tvs on the market are 1080i not p only a small amount are 1080p and i believe its 30fps at 1080p
There is a whole thread about this
z what are you smoking ? The ps2 hardrive was a failure . The xbox was not . It sped up loading times , allowed for storage and custom sound tracks and for you to dowlnoad content on it .
THe hardrives played a role in ms not being able to drop the price fast enough but it was nvidia that played an even bigger role in that problem
Of course a hard drive if very convenient for gamers. I am saying failure as in financially for the companies. Basically I don’t see it as being charged extra for an HDD. I see it as paying less for a standard system. If you don’t want an HDD, why pay for it? all analysts agree that Xbox is a financial disaster. the HDD and GPU played a role in that.
Another thing is why the HELL is MS requiring consumers to buy additional kits to go wireless? PS3 already supports up to 7 bluetooth controllers.
Note: now that both PS3 and Rev ditched disk tray, I have a feeling that the final X2 design will also ditch it
Finally, I don’t agree with the notion: if you don’t have it ‘now’, don’t buy it. I think a head.
Another thing is why the HELL is MS requiring consumers to buy additional kits to go wireless? PS3 already supports up to 7 bluetooth controllers.
Note: now that both PS3 and Rev ditched disk tray, I have a feeling that the final X2 design will also ditch it
Finally, I don’t agree with the notion: if you don’t have it ‘now’, don’t buy it. I think a head.
Ms supports 4 controllers out of the box wirelessely
Now if your talking about wifi enabled then i dunno. Perhaps its cheaper for them and they can make moeny off the wifi hook up .
Also sony supports 7 bluetooth controlers but how would u play on a screen ? a screen doesn't divide well into 7 equal pieces
why pay for a bluray drive u don't want it ?
Most of the TVs on the market aren't even HiDef, besides I'm referring primarily to fixed-pixel TVs which are always 60Hz progressive scan...
Few Xbox games install much of anything (expansion modules aside), so as a minor technicality the HDD doesn't speed up load times per se because you still have to load the HDD with data from the optical disc, hence you're not really speeding up load times (with the exception of titles that pre-buffer a lot of reusable data at boot time). What you do get is larger levels that require less RAM buffer (which in itself is more important...
Many of their vendors played a role (Nvidia was just the most visible) as MS was simply a customer of so many parts putting at the supply and pricing whims ov their suppliers. At least with 360 they're licensing a larger percentage of the technology so they can at least shop around for foundries and manufacturers more easily.
Don't play much sports or bomberman do ya?
The only problem with that arguement is you're comparing a primary content delivery medium with secondary storage... You'd have been better off argueing why have so many flash reader slots instead...
Who cares what Qualias are going for in eBay or anywhere else... Aparently you didn't read the post. My point was that the the LCDs/innard of the Qualia 004,5,6 are making they're way into the consumer line TVs. I wasn't expecting anybody to buy a Qualia itself...
still 7 isn't even sides and a sports game doesn't lend itself to uneven teams or teams with uneven human players
We could have a cheaper ps3 if bluray wasn't in it and personaly i don't wnat bluray . At least not untill after the format war . A hdd will allways be a hardrive it wont suddenly become a dead end or invalid . A bluray drive can become both of those rather quickly
Quite a few? I don't think you proved the point I made wrong, even in the slightest. Like I said there are hardly any HDTV's on the market that support 1080p, and the ones that do are doing so before the standard has been set.
I think you missed my point, that point is you can't get a 1080i pixel exact movie unless you watching on your computer. Even right now there's only a handful of 720p films available and those are all on the PC. Do you really expect movies to start coming in at 1080p any time soon after we have HD dvd players? I certainly don't.
I'm not talking about regular TV's, I'm talking about fixed pixel displays, and they really do suck at downscaling.
Where have you seen that television stations are going to support 1080i instead of 720p? You're right about bandwidth, being an issue, however I heard only a few months ago that by 2008 all television stations in north america will be switching to high def. Well, even if you're right, then it's yet another reason to not bother with a 1080p TV, right? considering how you won't get a benefit out of that and can certainly find a cheaper television that only has 1080i support.
BOOMEXPLODE
Regular
What strikes me is that with XBox 360 MS is pushing things like services, the "HD era," microtransactions, the "Gamer Guide," etcetera. These seem like things that a CEO or corporate executive would be impressed by, but that consumers (gamers) aren't exactly going to get excited over. Then you have Sony giving gamers exactly what it takes to get them excited. So, I think the relatively poor reaction to X360 is due to MS being boneheaded and not really understanding what gamers want. They should have put their best foot forward and not even shown the lackluster games (like PD0). If they had ONLY shown Gears of War I think the reaction would have been better.
- Status
