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Free now, who knows about tomorrow. Could be another Radeon Rays in the making.
GPU Ray Tracing Performance Comparisons [2021-2022]
- Thread starter DavidGraham
- Start date
DegustatoR
Legend
Can you give me an example of a feature which is being blocked from usage in any non-AMD partnered title lately?
DLSS is available to any UE4 licensee for free and will soon be similarly available to any Unity licensee. Not sure what it being "black box" has to do with the capability of it being implemented or not and why you're steering conversation into this. You think that a code being open source and freely moddable somehow make it impervious to being blocked from usage as a result of politics?
Oh, I see a lot of mental gymnastics here for sure - from the same users who do everything they can to make all AMD does look like gold. Less features is good. No DLSS allowed is perfect. It's open source, guys.
DavidGraham
Veteran
It's not just about console parity, Dirt 5 and Godfall have RT on PC only, console ports lack it completely, yet the presence of RT was trivial.
Lack of scalability is the core issue here, there is nothing stopping CapCom from offering higher quality RT settings for reflections, yet they won't do it. Politics. Metro Exodus stands as a prime example of a game developed for all parties, consoles, PCs, high end PCs. And this is an NVIDIA sponsored title by the way.
Sometimes throwing money at the problem doesn’t result in success. I get what you’re saying; which is why I think 4A really jumped to the front of the queue here among developers leading the charge into next generation techniques. Bigger studios tend to have larger inertia, sometimes it’s harder to scale up new techniques. So once again, I’m not sure if this is political than it is just being unable.
We can look backwards from 2022 to see if we are right though; but I don’t think going into next year there will be many companies will be pulling off what 4A did ie: discarding all setups without hardware DXR support.
this may have dlss later though possibly. I didn’t know it was an nvidia sponsored title.
DavidGraham
Veteran
It already has DLSS2.
We don't need that, just scale up your RT implementation to cover up more IQ improvements, give your reflections a better resolution or object coverage, give your shadows an increase in the number of shadow casting lights, the number of casted shadows .. etc. These things only take trivial time to implement once youu already paid the upfront cost of setting up an RT system in your engine.
This also applies to runtime cost: Managing full scene BVH has fixed cost, so we want this to pay off and adapt to GPU power.
Increasing number of shadow casting lights or tuning reflective material settings is surely a lot of manual work. But increasing ray budget or reducing GI lag sounds easy enough.
I never had any huge ghosting issues with the RTGI in the normal version of Metro. And this game was released two years ago. RE8 has one or maybe even the worst implementation of raytracing. Even one man developers doing a better job with the UE4...
The argument now in discussion is how RE8 RT performance differential between the 6XXX and 30XX is diminished by its quality settings (valid point and fair to assume), but to some people here, this is evidence of "politics" to favor AMD.
Not surprisingly, facts theories conjecture and semantics are all being thrown together into the discussion to "prove" causation. Embarrassing for a supposedly intelligent forum.
Lets throw some common sense into this.
1) Its not politics. Its a console port.
2) There are 10 times more evidence of this game quality settings behaving like a typical console port than there is for being a "political" choice.
3) Were it politics, if NVIDIA does it all the time so can AMD without the resentment seen here. Goes both ways.
4) Its not forbidden for AMD to have good RT performance.
Then, because one single set of data rarely proves anything is this world, we also have the poster child for RT performance on NVIDIA "Metro Exodus" doing exceptionally well on AMD, and I wonder how the politics theory applies here?
I for one am being led by evidence that
1) perhaps its better to consider RE8 PC RT limitations a result of a console port,
2) that by looking at Metro Exodus, AMD RT hybrid solution isn't totally dog shit, as demonstratively show by the 2080ti benchmark on this title.
Not surprisingly, facts theories conjecture and semantics are all being thrown together into the discussion to "prove" causation. Embarrassing for a supposedly intelligent forum.
Lets throw some common sense into this.
1) Its not politics. Its a console port.
2) There are 10 times more evidence of this game quality settings behaving like a typical console port than there is for being a "political" choice.
3) Were it politics, if NVIDIA does it all the time so can AMD without the resentment seen here. Goes both ways.
4) Its not forbidden for AMD to have good RT performance.
Then, because one single set of data rarely proves anything is this world, we also have the poster child for RT performance on NVIDIA "Metro Exodus" doing exceptionally well on AMD, and I wonder how the politics theory applies here?
I for one am being led by evidence that
1) perhaps its better to consider RE8 PC RT limitations a result of a console port,
2) that by looking at Metro Exodus, AMD RT hybrid solution isn't totally dog shit, as demonstratively show by the 2080ti benchmark on this title.
That's my impression too, and it extends to other console ports before.
RT on consoles was requested to accelerate RT adoption, and now that we have it, it is used to criticize primarily the chip maker.
I think we need some more patience. And looking at availability, there seems no need to hurry anyway.
DegustatoR
Legend
Nioh 2 is "a console port" and it got DLSS despite this.
It is certainly possible that the devs just didn't have the time/resources to do anything but the basic port.
But this is exactly where PC h/w IHVs come in with their incentives - or the lack of thereof in case of one of them.
It is certainly possible that the devs just didn't have the time/resources to do anything but the basic port.
But this is exactly where PC h/w IHVs come in with their incentives - or the lack of thereof in case of one of them.
Exactly, + adding tech is hard and often has questionable ROI even for IHVs, unlike adding something like a benchmark
In case of tech, it's people who benefit the most. Even if you don't like some tech for performance reasons, you can simply disable it and the tech will still add value for replaying the game in future probably even in some Enhanced Edition with all DLCs. Developers benefit too since they can increase sales via improved editions once there are new consoles or HW.
I spent a few hours in the game on PC and it seems there is no DDGI as I initially thought based on PS5 demo that I had tried before and GameGPU results with the same RT time in 1080p and 4K.
There is clearly per pixel AO/GI because noise and low res artifacts are clearly visible in PC version (didn't pay attention to them in PS5 demo, probably PS5 demo had better denoising).
Based on game benchmarks, we know that RT performance in RE8 is not tied to screen resolution, RT takes the same amount of time in 1080p and 4.
Scaling like that can be explained by either DDGI, which doesn't produce noise in screen space and has fixed cost in all resolutions, or by 1/4 res RT tracing resolution for 4K and full res in 1080p. The issue is that with their current denoiser, you can easily spot noise even in 4K, this could have been easily fixed by increasing RT resolution to 1/2 res with checkerboarding or to full res (this should be super easy for devs, probably even possible via config hacks).
In Metro EE, you can easily spot noise too with 1/4 res RT resolution ("Normal" preset iirc), but at least there are options for 1/2 checkerboarding and full res RT for higher end GPUs with highly reduced noise, but such options increase performance lead of 3090 over 6900 XT from 39% to 52%, which makes a perfect sense since with RT resolution increases RT portion of frame.
So what are the reasons behind limiting RT resolution by 1080p and leaving noise in RE8 without proving better quality options?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading your response, it would appear in my eyes that you are putting weight on the "politics" argument above all of console port documented precedents history, on account of Nioh 2.
I'm also baffled how in this situation you managed to find an angle to give AMD a second shot to the face with that lack of "IHV incentive" comment.
How is RE8 PC port AMD responsibility exactly?
What crime was committed here that lead to your sentencing of AMD?
What are we pointing fingers at?
What are we revolted at?
Excellent post. You are implying correctly via the Metro example that RDNA2 scales worse than Ampere. While that finding is undisputed, how exactly does it give weight to the political conspiracy of RE8, instead of, say, consider it a vanilla console port.
Because the question you really made there, is how can this not be a political decision? I am at a loss on how can it be even considered that.
DavidGraham
Veteran
Not just Metro Exodus, but the past history of AMD backed RT titles, Dirt 5 and Godfall had no console RT implementation, still AMD provided little RT additions for them, despite boasting about them in their marketing material. It's the same case here in RE8, there is no difference.
DegustatoR
Legend
Because there are no "settings bumps" here? The point of the discussion is the lack of more precise RT modes which would make the port look a lot better at the cost of performance. This could've been solved on NV side at least by adding DLSS but alas we got neither. We even got way worse CBR-like solution on PC than what's used on consoles.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Going forward I expect 2 things to happen.
- Developers that can and do wish to spend time pushing RT to see what they can do. Example - Remedy with Control.
- Developers that will put in as much RT as the consoles can handle and little more than that. Example - Capcom with RE8.
OTOH - there are a few (sadly shrinking number of) developers who will still attempt to push things even if it results in very little benefit on current gen consoles. Of course, this could be seen as potential research into things that might be possible with the next generation of consoles. Again, this isn't necessarily the case of any IHV pushing anything. Some developers just want to see what they can achieve with the hardware that is available.
Then there's a 3rd area that is rarely ever seen anymore. Where an IHV does all or most of the work to tack something onto a game. Thankfully, as I said, we rarely ever see this anymore.
Regards,
SB
DegustatoR
Legend
Control RT implementation exists because of "politics" - one IHV willing to spend a lot of effort on making it happen.