GF FX: best graphics processor?

This is an award based on microprocessor technology, why is any of the discussion revolving around particular implementations of it?

Remove all external limitations and compare the NV30 to the R300 and I can't see how people could be shocked by any stretch of the imagination. I think you could make an argument on behalf of the R300 without a doubt, but on a chip level I don't really see how anyone could imply the R300 is in any way clearly superior.

If the first A64 chips showed up with EDO 32bit RAM would that make the chip any less impressive on its own merits?

If this was graphics board level award then you could certainly make a valid line of argument using some of the points brought up in this thread, but on a processor level you aren't comparing driver issues or limitations of the PCB design.
 
Reverend said:
Yup, awards don't mean anything. Just like if an actor wins the Best Actor award at the Oscars and you certainly don't go see any of his future movies just coz he's won the award... right?

No but buy that actor winning they award it could lead to more movie titles for him or a higher cut per movie so it helps :) but thats not the point here so I will shadddyup right now :)
 
Remove all external limitations and compare the NV30 to the R300 and I can't see how people could be shocked by any stretch of the imagination. I think you could make an argument on behalf of the R300 without a doubt, but on a chip level I don't really see how anyone could imply the R300 is in any way clearly superior.

If the first A64 chips showed up with EDO 32bit RAM would that make the chip any less impressive on its own merits?

If this was graphics board level award then you could certainly make a valid line of argument using some of the points brought up in this thread, but on a processor level you aren't comparing driver issues or limitations of the PCB design.
Excuse me, But the problems with the Nv30 have nothing to do with Drivers or PCB Design.

Why is a Graphics processors memory bus, AA, AF, Processing power etc.. not all considered?

1. Nv30 claims 32 bit percision, but has to run everything at 16
2. Nv30 has inferior AA
3. Nv30 has more than one Known Hardware bug
4. Nv30 At its base Core speed of 400mhz that it was taped out at does not outperform the R300.
5. Nv30 was not commercially available in december. No board partners had working processors until this year. (that they had purchased)
6. there are no board partners. Nvidia is making all their own custom 12 layer PCB's

I dont see how you can count paper specs that dont actually work in the real world as a victory. It makes no sense.

guess what, the Nv30 is not a CPU, its a VPU and there are many areas that come together to make up a VPU. You simply do not blow 10 areas off and give a company an award based on one single thing. Especially when that one thing is not working as the doctor ordered.

Especially when it is clear that the Nv30 simply did not see the light of day in 2002. Anyone saying otherwise is not telling the truth. Sending a board or two (that cost nothing to the recipient) for testing does not count as a Commercial product. Period. Other wise Bitboys should have recieved the award 3 times already.

IMO, there is not the least justification for this award taken as a whole. Not when ATI produced, Shiped, and Deliverd a near perfectly performing DX9 classed card 6 motnhs ago. That actually delivers peak performance even under full FP24, and its listed shader capabilities.

Hell, why dont we just write a software Supergraphics 19,000 emmulator that has 1,000,0000 instructions but takes a whole year to process. Whats the difference.
 
BenSkywalker said:
Remove all external limitations and compare the NV30 to the R300 and I can't see how people could be shocked by any stretch of the imagination. I think you could make an argument on behalf of the R300 without a doubt, but on a chip level I don't really see how anyone could imply the R300 is in any way clearly superior.
If this was graphics board level award then you could certainly make a valid line of argument using some of the points brought up in this thread, but on a processor level you aren't comparing driver issues or limitations of the PCB design.
I can see where "puppetman" gets his rationale, but I think there should be one more criteria added to his judgement than just shader instructions... reality. Turn the chip on and it's a joke, and has been for weeks now. The r300/9700pro simply outclasses the nv30 design in real use, engineering, functionality, quality, affordability, and efficiency. To assume otherwise is ludicrous. Sure the shader setup on the nv30 is nice in many aspects, but overall the chip was outdone by ATI in every way.

The pathetic hobbyist comment was absolutely uncalled for and arrogant. This "professional" obviously knows nothing as he ought to know it.

I am not surprised by this guys award though. His award is His opinion, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. ATI should NOT get his award, as his award is his to give to whom he pleases. ATI has already received what they deserved for r300 from everyone who really mattered. What else could any company ask for after complete market acceptance of their product? I doubt ATI is losing any sleep over not getting the "puppet pick" award.
 
Excuse me, But the problems with the Nv30 have nothing to do with Drivers or PCB Design.

Why is a Graphics processors memory bus, AA, AF, Processing power etc.. not all considered?

You state that the problems have nothing to do with drivers or PCB design without anything to back your assertions. First the obvious point, the FX boards that have been previewed lack a 256bit memory bus and hence have a sizeable bandwith deficit. Are you trying to imply that that somehow ~doubling the bandwith on the FX would have no impact on performance? You don't think nVidia can do anything to optimize drivers or change the quality of AF? To date pretty much every comparison of AF quality has focused on the LOD bias, something that is extremely simplistic to change via drivers, as can adjustments be made to adaptive filtering techniques.

1. Nv30 claims 32 bit percision, but has to run everything at 16

According to whom exactly?

2. Nv30 has inferior AA

Which is part of the case against it.

3. Nv30 has more than one Known Hardware bug

Heard that about the original GF3 concerning 3D textures from nVidia themselves even, and they were liars.

4. Nv30 At its base Core speed of 400mhz that it was taped out at does not outperform the R300.

In what? I can show you benches where it does, even the R9700 Pro. It is not absolute by any means.

5. Nv30 was not commercially available in december. No board partners had working processors until this year. (that they had purchased)

Industry analysts who talk to the people who know directly at the OEMs said they had them, you say they didn't. Who would you expect rational people to believe? Make the argument about unrealisticly low amounts if you so choose, this award was about unveiling, not about launching.

I dont see how you can count paper specs that dont actually work in the real world as a victory. It makes no sense.

You have a GeForce FX, have written an extensive amount of DX9 and OpenGL applications to come to that conclusion is the only thing I can assume. Objectivity would be non existant if it were anything but that.

guess what, the Nv30 is not a CPU, its a VPU and there are many areas that come together to make up a VPU. You simply do not blow 10 areas off and give a company an award based on one single thing.

The award is for exactly the core chip and not the platform. They simply do blow off all the other areas and give an award based on exactly what the award says it is based off of. If you don't like the award criteria, then take issue with it, not who is given it.

Especially when it is clear that the Nv30 simply did not see the light of day in 2002. Anyone saying otherwise is not telling the truth. Sending a board or two (that cost nothing to the recipient) for testing does not count as a Commercial product.

Commercial availability on an engineering basis is quite different then commercial availability on a consumer basis. What do you think the team of hardware engineers for the NV30 have been doing for the last couple of months? Do you think they are still working on the completed chip?

IMO, there is not the least justification for this award taken as a whole. Not when ATI produced, Shiped, and Deliverd a near perfectly performing DX9 classed card 6 motnhs ago. That actually delivers peak performance even under full FP24, and its listed shader capabilities.

Hell, why dont we just write a software Supergraphics 19,000 emmulator that has 1,000,0000 instructions but takes a whole year to process. Whats the difference.

Actually, the justification for it is very obvious, would you have a problem with it if the R300 won? Then what you should be focusing on is why you think the R300 is superior in the context of the particular award, not what you think is better based on your particular interests in a board. What you have is an architecture that is more efficient vs one that has more flexibility(boiling it down to its core). Performance wise on a chip level I would say the two are overall quite comparable(excluding external factors) based on what we have seen so far. The R300 has a superior AA implementation going for it while the NV30 is likely to be better at non real time 3D rendering.

You want to know which is the superior consumer level product right now then that is obvious(I just orderd a R9500Pro for myself, can PM you the receipt if you question it). That doesn't mean that looking at particular aspects of the two cores against each other will always yield close to the same results.
 
It's with regards to the engine that I disagree with him. It's like building the most advanced plane design but ignoring gravity effects.

Both use a 128bit Vertex engine but the R300 goes a further step by having a Scalar as well as Vector engine running in parallel

The R300 includes hardware gamma correction

Both have 128bit Rendering pipelines
 
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