GART: Games and Applications using RayTracing

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I'm not sure AMD is in a position to be mocking anything. It seems they haven't learned their lesson with that. Yes DLSS is a black box but maybe that's a good thing given the alternatives aren't any better. This notion that giving developers free reign is always the right option isn't really supported by facts. It's results that matter, not developer egos. 20 years ago everyone in the software industry thought they could build it better themselves now everyone is rushing headfirst toward SaaS vendors and delegating the hell out of everything. Sometimes that's the right call.

Yep, I suppose time will tell how much UE will dictate things in this generation and whether other engines will offer something compelling.
AMD making a roast was purely besides the point ...

Most proficient developers aren't driven by ego at all and will eventually settle for what works with them. If AMD making an attempt at educating developers leads to a more sustainable future with less technical debt/more robust integration then it's a move that works for developers ...

Is keeping developers in the dark by not educating them on the solution somehow supposed to be more sustainable and lead to less technical debt for them even if the results are better ?

In my view, things like sustainability/technical debt will count far more towards a developer's choices/preferences in a technology than either politics or end results ever will ...
 
But it has 24GB. So it can render these nine frames with many objects. :D

At the moment it looks like a 4090 is 4x faster than a 7900XTX.
 
Most proficient developers aren't driven by ego at all and will eventually settle for what works with them. If AMD making an attempt at educating developers leads to a more sustainable future with less technical debt/more robust integration then it's a move that works for developers ...

Is keeping developers in the dark by not educating them on the solution somehow supposed to be more sustainable and lead to less technical debt for them even if the results are better ?

In many cases developers having knowledge of the inner workings of the tools that they use is actually helpful. In other cases it's not helpful at all and they don't need to know those details. This presumption that game developers always know best is not a blanket rule. Developers building games in UE don't need to know every detail of how UE works just as developers of game engines don't need to know every detail of how the hardware or OS works. It's ok for some things to be black boxes.

In my view, things like sustainability/technical debt will count far more towards a developer's choices/preferences in a technology than either politics or end results ever will ...

There is no guarantee that a home grown solution is more sustainable than an off the shelf solution. That's the problem with this entire premise - the false belief that you can always do it better in house. Why would DLSS or XeSS be more of a technical debt concern than the tons of other 3rd party libraries that games already use?
 
@pjbliverpool , with ~24 minimal fps it is basically a console level RT experience. But I don't know why any GF owner would play the game without DLSS.

To clarify those aren't the settings I play with. I just set it that way for the comparison. I play with DLSS2 Performance + frame generation and it hovers pretty consistently around 60fps.
 
DLAA is a great addition for those with lower resolution monitors

Exactly! I've been very pleased with DLAA in conjunction with the Overdrive mode at 1440p on my 4090 FE (with a Ryzen 5900x CPU). Just running around and getting into a few fights, both day and night, the framerate averages in the mid 60s with lows in the high 50s and running into the 70s depending on the scene. Both the frame times and the image are quite stable and nice. The GPU runs at 95% or more utilization consistently, and the CPU hovers around 30-35%.

Edit: To clarify, I also have DLSS 3/FG enabled as well, and it does not present noticeable artifacts to my eye.
 
In many cases developers having knowledge of the inner workings of the tools that they use is actually helpful. In other cases it's not helpful at all and they don't need to know those details. This presumption that game developers always know best is not a blanket rule. Developers building games in UE don't need to know every detail of how UE works just as developers of game engines don't need to know every detail of how the hardware or OS works. It's ok for some things to be black boxes.
I think you underestimate how important having knowledge is to a developer ...

One of the main reasons why Unity loses out to Unreal to PC/console developers is because Unity Technologies is far more stingy than Epic Games is with access to their engines. Epic Games with Unreal could very well may have taken the same approach as Nvidia did with DLSS but they didn't and instead went with a community friendly approach much like the Godot project because they care more about the developer's experience/contribution/productivity than some streamlined procedures ...
There is no guarantee that a home grown solution is more sustainable than an off the shelf solution. That's the problem with this entire premise - the false belief that you can always do it better in house. Why would DLSS or XeSS be more of a technical debt concern than the tons of other 3rd party libraries that games already use?
Sometimes dependencies like hardware, OS, compilers, libraries, and engines simply pays for themselves because of a large community backing or contributions ...

It's not all about rolling out your own infrastructure and I can realize that but having the capacity to at least iterate, customize, or fix it is still empowering to the developers which shouldn't be discarded at all. There's tons of successful infrastructure projects that are very accessible to game developers like Clang/LLVM compiler (open source/all modern consoles have this available), Unreal engine (most popular PC/console game engine), Havok (most used commercial physics engine), Bink Video (acquired by Epic Games), Chromium (for displaying webpages inside app), and even artist content editing tools like Blender ...

So while industry maybe moving on from in-house expertise with infrastructure, DLSS doesn't have much in common with the above mentioned in terms of trends besides the fact that it's just another external dependency. The industry is dropping in-house solutions for more open and shared solutions because it's helps the industry retain important knowledge to pass on for future entrants. It's an accomplishment by itself that the Unreal engine project has lasted for well over 2 decades and being open definitely didn't hurt it's longevity and in fact likely helped it become more successful when most software projects have development lifespans of less than 5 years. Can you absolutely say that DLSS will stand the test of time when it has nearly none of those qualities since it's author isn't interested in opening, sharing, or even educating it's users about the technology ?

If DLSS starts dropping in usage and it's only developer becomes an unwilling maintainer, I'm sure users would appreciate not having their projects being held hostage because some other party refused to update/fix their tools so you can obviously see why how DLSS has more technical debt than other 3rd party libraries ...
 
If DLSS starts dropping in usage and it's only developer becomes an unwilling maintainer, I'm sure users would appreciate not having their projects being held hostage because some other party refused to update/fix their tools so you can obviously see why how DLSS has more technical debt than other 3rd party libraries ...
All AI models will suffer from this debt. It’s a complete black box product. What is possible is that instead of DLSS, developers are responsible for DirectML coding and run a model. But that’s about as far as that is going to go. Developers will never be involved in the training of AI models. The skill set is unnecessary and inefficient for them to engage in.

From that perspective I also think this is the way forward. This is how we do more work with less silicon. Developers will have to just accept that they cannot control the output of AI, it’s approximative and not deterministic.
 
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If DLSS starts dropping in usage and it's only developer becomes an unwilling maintainer, I'm sure users would appreciate not having their projects being held hostage because some other party refused to update/fix their tools so you can obviously see why how DLSS has more technical debt than other 3rd party libraries ...
Thus far it has been the exact opposite, with DLSS and other Nv tech being properly supported for years and decades even while whatever games are using instead either breaks or becomes irrelevant fast because other tech supercede it.
 
All AI models will suffer from this debt. It’s a complete black box product. What is possible is that instead of DLSS, developers are responsible for DirectML coding and run a model. But that’s about as far as that is going to go. Developers will never be involved in the training of AI models. The skill set is unnecessary and inefficient for them to engage in.
Making it more open and sharing it is better than the contrary but in addition I don't know if developers feel totally comfortable about making use of something they don't know much of and have little control over ...
Thus far it has been the exact opposite, with DLSS and other Nv tech being properly supported for years and decades even while whatever games are using instead either breaks or becomes irrelevant fast because other tech supercede it.
It remains to be seen since the question won't be answered until years down the road have passed by. The general statement that infrastructure "breaks/becomes irrelevant fast and/or other tech supercede" isn't holding anymore as the industry is maturing and some of it (Clang/Unreal) has lasted longer and aged better than many of Nvidia's own projects ...
 
Making it more open and sharing it is better than the contrary but in addition I don't know if developers feel totally comfortable about making use of something they don't know much of and have little control over ...
I think they would comfortable with it. It’s not the first licensed technology they would leverage. As long as that model licenses them to use it on every platform, I think they would be okay with it.
 
So on one hand, we have a company who is constantly pushing the envelope on PC space, in the last 5 years alone they managed to invent the most powerful and successful upscaler "DLSS", introduced the most powerful AA solution "DLAA/DLDSR", introduced frame generation for the first time ever, made a tech that reduced frame latency in major ways "Reflex", breathed new life into the dream of Ray Tracing again "RTX/DXR", implemented advanced RT effects in dozens of PC games, and finally managed to successfully ship multiple titles with Path Tracing "the pinnacle of graphics". They are even creating a software to mod old games with Path Tracing. No one else in the industry did this, all while maintaining performance and energy efficiency superiority. I am not gonna even list their achievements in the last 10 or 15 years, the last 5 years alone are enough.

On the other hand, we have a company who is happy setting on it's laurels doing nothing for PC gaming, while serving them barebones console ports, with anemic features, very limited Ray Tracing effects, a sub par upscaling solution "FSR", no regard for advanced visual features for PC, no frame generation yet (it's going to be the same as their sub par upscaler), no latency reduction tech, and no interest in Path Tracing. On the contrary, they helped push a dubious console like API on the PC space, one that caused numerous problems and hardware limitations across all aspects of computing (CPU, GPU, and memory), that we have yet to recover from 10 years later.

Thank you very much, I know -as a user and as a gamer- which one, and which path I will choose, the path of "progress". I will completely disregard any complaints stemming from a developer's ego, fairy tales promises, or empty, unsubstantiated preaching. Those very much backfired on all of us.
 
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