GART: Games and Applications using RayTracing

[DavidGraham]

This is precisely what I call the least common denominator, and this is why it's so harmful to PC. PC is not Xbox/PlayStation, PCs are far superior to them (performance, features, compatibility and flexibility wise), if your technology is about sharing what works best on Xbox and expect it to work on PC with the same efficiency/quality then you're not doing PC it's proper justice.

This is what actually makes PC gaming worse not better, sharing is not better for PC, PC is it's own beast and needs to be treated the way it deserves (quality, compatibility, visuals and performance wise), not the way of the least common denominator. If you -as a developer- are not planning to do that, then you should simply get out of the way. You are not helping PC at all.

 

[Lurkmass]

Then I suppose developers shouldn't be sharing AAA console developed games on PC as well for good measure going by your line of thought then ?

If PC/Nvidia users don't like feature parity or sharing technology with consoles then I suggest them to go petition developers to not release any content at all for their platform/hardware! The sense of entitlement from the likes thereof because they think they somehow deserve *better* for reasons xyz becomes a tiresome prospect for developers ...

Developers aren't interested in developing different versions of their games anymore and that practice should belong as a relic of the past ...

 

[trinibwoy]

By "playing nice", AMD can keep cooperation minimal from their side while most of the work stays with developers since they get to ship their products with feature parity ...

Are you suggesting that doing nothing and hoping other people pick up the slack is a winning strategy that benefits the industry? We all know how that ends. The slack doesn’t get picked up.

You just simply don't want to accept current alternatives so it matters not what I propose since you keep refusing to listen at any turn. Regardless of the alternatives, the industry will inevitably free itself from any attempts of vendor control like it did with PhysX, GameWorks, and next will be DLSS whether you like it or not ...

What alternatives? You haven’t offered any.

The reality is that DLSS doesn't help developers ship their products faster elsewhere and is simply extra work to help out no one else but Nvidia.

It benefits Nvidia’s customers who represent 85% of the market. It also helps ISVs upsell features to those same people. You conveniently ignore this point.

As far as I'm concerned the only long-term sustainable option is for Nvidia to "genuinely" cooperate with the industry like AMD or they keep continuing to kill of DLSS if past precedent (PhysX and GameWorks) is anything to go by ...

What are some unique examples of AMD’s genuine cooperation that has benefited the industry? PhysX is a poor example and doesn’t really help your point. The industry still hasn’t come up with anything better.

 

[trinibwoy]

If the others here can't grasp that political merits comes first before technical merits then it doesn't matter how good their technology is if it gets ignored ...

Politics are important but economics are also important. The notion that companies should not differentiate from the competition is anathema to progress in any industry. The idea that the mere act of competing is in some way evil or controlling is just silly.

 

[DavidGraham]

If PC/Nvidia users don't like feature parity or sharing technology with consoles

You mean sharing consoles medium settings/technology/experience with powerful PCs? No, thank you very much. If you as a developer want to make money from your PC port, then you will abide by it's rules just like every other developer before you, your PC port should have more visual settings over consoles, more fps and more features and it should be optimized for the platform strengths. If you don't do that, then take your sub par port back to your console, we have no need for it here, we will play it on emulators later. Step aside and leave the job to more capable and dedicated developers.

Next time someone will demand PCs should stick to 30fps and sub 4K resolutions (just like consoles)!!! Jeeez.

Developers aren't interested in developing different versions of their games anymore and that practice should belong as a relic of the past ...

LOL, so we should all play on the same hardware then, why bother having different consoles, hardware specs, software capabilities and different cost structure? Lets force everyone to buy the same hardware and play the same games! What is this? What kind of a tech world is this? The Soviet Union?

 

[Remij]

Then I suppose developers shouldn't be sharing AAA console developed games on PC as well for good measure going by your line of thought then ?

If PC/Nvidia users don't like feature parity or sharing technology with consoles then I suggest them to go petition developers to not release any content at all for their platform/hardware! The sense of entitlement from the likes thereof because they think they somehow deserve *better* for reasons xyz becomes a tiresome prospect for developers ...

Developers aren't interested in developing different versions of their games anymore and that practice should belong as a relic of the past ...

I think you're perhaps overexaggerating just a bit. Nothing you're explaining is new.. it is how things have always been. Developers are free to do what they wish, and will continue to do so.. just as Nvidia will continue to pay developers money to adopt/utilize their technologies. There's more technology shared between consoles and PC than ever before... and Nvidia having a proprietary upscaling technology isn't going to change that. Developers can freely ignore Nvidia... or the people who make the decisions and pay their wages can decide for them.

Developers aren't going to boycott Nvidia or the PC platform... because of some upscaling tech... cmon now..

 

[Lurkmass]

Are you suggesting that doing nothing and hoping other people pick up the slack is a winning strategy that benefits the industry? We all know how that ends. The slack doesn’t get picked up.

Most often the case it's not like any one vendor alone has a say as to how things will play out either way ...

What alternatives? You haven’t offered any.

One was already mentioned (FSR) but it's not my problem that you don't like it ...

It benefits Nvidia’s customers who represent 85% of the market. It also helps ISVs upsell features to those same people. You conveniently ignore this point.

Correction, that's 85% of the PC market and if you only care about this segment then that's your problem again and not mine. Developers can't ship DLSS on consoles so it's an issue for them ...

I ignore the point you bring up because it's irrelevant to developers ...

What are some unique examples of AMD’s genuine cooperation that has benefited the industry? PhysX is a poor example and doesn’t really help your point. The industry still hasn’t come up with anything better.

If PSOs are an AMD invention then that has massively benefitted the industry since they took that specific page out of Mantle's design. Just about every IHV (Apple/Intel/mobile) seems prefer it implementing it over separate shader objects in their drivers and while they maybe a mixed bag for developers, they get to share code with Xbox. Cooperation is genuine when different parties reach a consensus as opposed to a transactional relationship between parties much like in the case Nvidia getting developers on their payroll to implement exclusive features they don't want. PhysX was a dead end because Nvidia didn't want to maintain upkeep for it despite their vast treasury and the same will happen for DLSS ...

Nvidia are going to eventually start to wonder what the end goal is (if any) of spending their own resources to get the developers/industry to implement features they don't want. Don't you see the ridiculousness in it all ?

Politics are important but economics are also important. The notion that companies should not differentiate from the competition is anathema to progress in any industry. The idea that the mere act of competing is in some way evil or controlling is just silly.

The industry doesn't have a problem with competition. The industry has a problem with a belligerent participant who's clearly trying to extract more control out of them ...

If you don't see the vendor control aspect in a developers eyes then it's pointless to continue the exchange any longer since we're just going to have to agree to disagree ...

 

[DavidGraham]

Kind of a mixed bag. Sometimes the differences are obvious, but sometimes it's not that apparent.

I guess this illustrates the difference better.

Ray Tracing Off
Ray Tracing On
Path Tracing On

 

[DegustatoR]

Yes, PhysX died, but what replaced it? Nothing.

I mean PhysX 5 was released this Feb.
It's open source and anyone can license it and use it: https://github.com/NVIDIA-Omniverse/PhysX
v4 is also open source and available: https://github.com/NVIDIAGameWorks/PhysX
If anything PhysX is showing what would happen to a technology if instead of being actively pushed by an IHV's devrel it would just be "open sourced and made available to everyone" - it would just sit there without any interest from those whos main point of effort is to make a game run well on Xbox One in 2023.

 

[Remij]

Nvidia are going to eventually start to wonder what the end goal is (if any) of spending their own resources to get the developers/industry to implement features they don't want. Don't you see the ridiculousness in it all ?

The goal is to sell discreet GPUs... which they do a better job of than the competition. DLSS more than anything.. is free marketing for both Nvidia and publishers.

More than anything... I'm worried about developers utilizing DLSS/FSR as a crutch for shitty optimization. That should be concerning you far more than anything else.

 

[trinibwoy]

One was already mentioned (FSR) but it's not my problem that you don't like it ...

FSR wouldn’t exist without DLSS, the very thing you’re arguing against.

Correction, that's 85% of the PC market and if you only care about this segment then that's your problem again and not mine. Developers can't ship DLSS on consoles so it's an issue for them ...

Nvidia is a manufacturer of PC graphics cards not consoles. If your basic point here is that the PC ecosystem should be forever subservient to the lowest common denominator of console hardware and not aim higher I don’t think you really believe that.

Nvidia are going to eventually start to wonder what the end goal is (if any) of spending their own resources to get the developers/industry to implement features they don't want. Don't you see the ridiculousness in it all ?

Developers don’t like upscalimg tech that give them back significant frame budget to work with? Why in the world aren’t all console games running at native 4K then?

The industry doesn't have a problem with competition. The industry has a problem with a belligerent participant who's clearly trying to extract more control out of them ...

If you don't see the vendor control aspect in a developers eyes then it's pointless to continue the exchange any longer since we're just going to have to agree to disagree ...

I guess we’ll have to take your word for it that Nvidia has been heavy handed with DLSS. Public statements from developers have told a different story. Yes let’s agree to disagree. I will always think that doing something is better for everyone than doing nothing.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Jolt physics might start replacing physx.

I’ve lost the plot on this thread.

 

[techuse]

Far in the past. What matters is the present.

Does Nvidia prevent FSR2 from being implemented into their games? No, not at all. Many of their sponsored games have FSR support.

Do their sponsored games run like crap on AMD hardware? No. Performance on AMD cards in most of their titles is roughly around what you would expect from them. Meanwhile we have games like AC Valhala and Dirt 5 that run far better on AMD hardware for no reason. (Like 5700XT outperforming a 2080Ti)

Most importantly, does the fact that games are Nvidia sponsored mean an inferior experience for the enduser? No. Nvidia sponsored games do not have an insane appetite for VRAM for no obvious reason (which also hurts AMD's entry level cards with 8 GB or less). Nvidia is also not actively trying to keep developers from implementing their true vision (dumbed down Raytracing or none at all), though that is speculation but it is pretty apparent with all of AMD's sponsored titles.

Sorry but from a current perspective, Nvidia is more consumer friendly right now compared to AMD. Yes Nvidia did a lot of BS in the past, but they did improve.

There is no evidence to suggest AMD stops devs from implementing DLSS and certainly not from implementing their “true vision”, whatever that even means. Maybe Nvidia should stop fleecing their customers with unjustifiably small amounts of VRAM. Play an Nvidia sponsored game on an Nvidia architecture that isn't current and let me know how that experience is for you. As a 1080ti owner let me assure you it’s not good.

You mean that “one” time decades ago with the 9700 pro? Surely that’s not relevant today.

Btw, how is DLSS anti-consumer? it’s literally a free feature they never had before.

DLSS isn't anti-consumer. Their consistent planned obsolescence in their GPUs, artificially gate keeping features, actively deceiving customers with GPU names, attempting to control independent reviewers are but a few of the anti-consumer tactics that are standard operating procedure for Nvidia.

 

[DegustatoR]

As a 1080ti owner let me assure you it’s not good.

How are things in current gen games on a RX 580?

 

[techuse]

How are things in current gen games on a RX 580?

Closer to my 1080ti than ever. Usually some 20-40% faster than a 1060.

 

[DegustatoR]

Closer to my 1080ti than ever. Usually some 20-40% faster than a 1060.

That's not what I usually see in benchmarks.

 

[techuse]

That's not what I usually see in benchmarks.

Dying Light 2: Stay Human v.1.8.3 тест Old GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | Тест GPU

В данном обзоре мы представляем тест игры Dying Light 2: Stay Human, протестированную на семействах видеокарт GEFORCE GTX и

gamegpu.com

Cyberpunk 2077 v. 1.61 тест Old GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | TEST GPU

В данном обзоре мы представляем тест игры Cyberpunk 2077 v. 1.61, протестированную на семействах видеокарт GEFORCE GTX и RAD

gamegpu.com

The Callisto Protocol тест GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | Тест GPU

В данном обзоре мы представляем тест игры The Callisto Protocol, протестированную на семействах видеокарт GEFORCE GTX и RADEON RX, при установках качества графики MEDIUM.

gamegpu.com

https://gamegpu.com/action-/-fps-/-tps/forspoken-test-old-gpu-cpu

https://gamegpu.com/rpg/%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5/sons-of-the-forest-test-old-gpu-cpu

https://gamegpu.com/rts-/-%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8/company-of-heroes-3-test-old-gpu-cpu

https://gamegpu.com/action-/-fps-/-tps/atomic-heart-test-old-gpu-cpu

Returnal тест Old GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | TEST GPU

Какой эффект на старые видеокарты оказывает игра Returnal? Узнайте об этом и о том, как использование технологии FidelityFX Super Resolution может помочь увеличить частоту кадров на старых видеокартах в этом обзоре на GameGPU.

gamegpu.com

https://gamegpu.com/rpg/%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5/hogwarts-legacy-test-old-gpu-cpu

Dead Space тест Old GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | TEST GPU

В данном обзоре мы представляем тест игры Dead Space, протестированную на старых семействах видеокарт на низких, средних и высоких настройках качества графики.

gamegpu.com

The Last of Us Part I тест Old GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | Тест GPU

В данном обзоре мы представляем тест новой игры The Last of Us Part I, протестированную на старых семействах видеока

gamegpu.com

UNCHARTED: Legacy of Thieves Collection тест Old GPU/CPU | RPG/Ролевые | Тест GPU

В данном обзоре мы представляем тест новой игры UNCHARTED: Legacy of Thieves Collection, протестированную на старых семейств

gamegpu.com

Could you link me the benchmarks where you are seeing different results?

 

[BRiT]

This is a thread about Games and Applications using RayTracing.

It is not a Performance Comparison thread.
It is not a sales or market breakdown thread.
Nor is it any topic that would fit in the read-only "Architecture and Products" forum. Continued attempts to use it as such will result in the thread being locked.

 

[troyan]

Someone extracted every comparision from the CD Project behind video:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/12emwm7

Indoor shots looking so good. Unbelievable how fast we have come from one simple effect like reflections, GI or shadows to something like this with pathtracing quality. Only 4 1/2 years.

 

[iroboto]

DLSS can run on console, the previous super resolution directML demos are all Nvidia DLSS models and running on DirectML.

The largest challenge isn’t the hardware that is the major restriction to obtaining ML based super resolution, it’s the model. Unless a company has licensed you the model you can’t use it. The underlying technology is probably not as important though things like DLSS3 is starting to get more custom, their original models should work on standard compute.

Both RT and ML will come in time, but there are several factors that need work. On the RT side it needs time to develop. On the ML side there are business aspects on how nvidia and Intel would be paid for their license on console.

I’m sure both are being worked on, these technologies are desired, but the bickering on why it’s not out yet is unlikely to be related to the threads postulated here. The tldr; just have some patience it will come.