GART: Games and Applications using RayTracing

[PSman1700]

What would be an example of a non RT AAA game which looks dated because of that?
(Serious question - not having RT GPU idk what i miss. Hard to judge from YT and screenshots. Though, as a gamer i would feel no need yet to upgrade. Exodus is the only game which makes a bigger difference to non RT, but i've played that already.)

Look at the DF 2077 tech analysis.... or if you play it yourself, without RT maxed vs off, its quite the difference. Its just one example, but theres quite many games that really get a nice lift from RT. Minecraft RT vs non RT is a huge difference, makes it look like a totally new game.

But like in rift apart and BFV where its limited to some reflections, ye, its not going to make such a difference as to non RT modes.

Obviously, this all has to do with own opinions, as with anything graphics and visuals related. There wont ever be an outcome to such discussions.

 

[DegustatoR]

Most high end games look fine without RT cause they still target PS4/XBO h/w leading to the need to provide a good non-RT solution in the first place.
But in like 90% of games with RT once you turn RT on it's hard to go back to non-RT version.
Differences no matter how small are influencing the overall perception in a very positive way.

 

[JoeJ]

Obviously, this all has to do with own opinions, as with anything graphics and visuals related. There wont ever be an outcome to such discussions.

There is big outcome for me, as i have to 'ignore my personal taste and preferences', which works bast by studying opinions of others. So thanks for feedback
CP is a game where i did not really follow it's RT features. Only recently i watched some RTX on/off vids and i was pretty disappointed. Minor difference, and it feels more 'put on' than a revolution. And that's exactly the problem we can only address after RT is on minimal specs. That's the big dilemma. Consoles help it a lot, but it still takes time.
Maybe i should visit a friend to see some RT for real...

 

[Malo]

CP is a game where i did not really follow it's RT features. Only recently i watched some RTX on/off vids and i was pretty disappointed. Minor difference, and it feels more 'put on' than a revolution.

They did such a good job with their regular lighting and shadows that indeed it didn't stand out like one would expect but the reflections made a big difference in CP imo. Granted those effects aren't present everywhere since they're reflections but it's such a massive difference when they're there.

 

[PSman1700]

There is big outcome for me, as i have to 'ignore my personal taste and preferences', which works bast by studying opinions of others. So thanks for feedback
CP is a game where i did not really follow it's RT features. Only recently i watched some RTX on/off vids and i was pretty disappointed. Minor difference, and it feels more 'put on' than a revolution. And that's exactly the problem we can only address after RT is on minimal specs. That's the big dilemma. Consoles help it a lot, but it still takes time.
Maybe i should visit a friend to see some RT for real...

Yeah, again, visual/graphics discussions go nowhere as everyone has their own opinions.

 

[JoeJ]

They did such a good job with their regular lighting and shadows that indeed it didn't stand out like one would expect but the reflections made a big difference in CP imo. Granted those effects aren't present everywhere since they're reflections but it's such a massive difference when they're there.

Yeah, their standard reflections are awesome, i hope they give some talk about how they did it.
Even paying attention to just that, the RT uplift isn't that big in comparison:

Both versions look good, both versions still look gamey just as much as each other. And this also holds for the best case of Exodus imo.

Beside reflections, i assumed area lights and shadows would give us an entirely different look. Both those games do this, but the win is much more subtle than i had expected. I realize we already have most of the 'area light advantage' from baked probes, so the 'point light limitation' was long gone before RT was there.
Raytraced GI can do all this for dynamic scenes, but it's too laggy to push dynamic worlds much further than we already do. Accuracy is still too restricted to look realistic.
Replacing (cascaded) SMs entirely also did not happen anywhere yet. TA issues, dynamic foliage, missing lod support... at least one of those remain major obstacles.

So my own expectations toned quite a bit down over the last two years. We can't achieve wonders just from the technology alone it seems. Artists must help it too, and that's where minimum specs matter . Level design with reflections could look super cool, but then RT isn't optional anymore.

 

[DavidGraham]

and games lacking RT support are not 'outdated' just because of that

I didn't say they are.

On the other hand, you have a significant percentage of visually impressive games pushing their visuals up through ray tracing, even indie titles are doing the same. So case closed, if you are a graphics enthusiast, you need an RT GPU, and a capable one at that.

 

[Malo]

Yeah, their standard reflections are awesome, i hope they give some talk about how they did it.

That video isn't very good in that it doesn't demonstrate the huge benefit of RT reflections, not requiring screenspace. The angles used in that video are all keeping the reflected content in screenspace.

 

[JoeJ]

So case closed, if you are a graphics enthusiast, you need an RT GPU, and a capable one at that.

hmm... still spotting some undertone here like 'if you care about good gfx, buy NV GPU and sell that arm and leg for that.'
I'll do so if PS6 & co agree and it becomes the next gaming base architecture. Til then: Gamers first, enthusiasm second.
About 15% of GPUs have RT according to Steam. Not enough yet. It will bump up after current crisis, but affordable and capable entry level must happen as well.
One option to get there would be to extend production of older chips on older processes. Chiplets probably only help the highest end at first.

 

[Malo]

hmm... still spotting some undertone here like 'if you care about good gfx, buy NV GPU and sell that arm and leg for that.'

Believe me when I say that I'm one of the last people here to market Nvidia and their RTX bullshit. I have rallied against the folks here that have pushed the Nvidia crap since Turing but have since given up and just ignore them now. Irrespective of what features are available or run better on whichever vendor, I'm referring to the technology itself: raytracing. Tech that in fact wasn't invented by Nvidia in spite of their marketing departments and community evangelists ensuring gamers now think so.

 

[JoeJ]

Believe me when I say that I'm one of the last people here to market Nvidia and their RTX bullshit.

It was there long before RTX. PhysX demos showing large scale fluid simulations and 100k rigid bodies also were marketing promises just made up to make Titan GPUs - sold at high margins - the 'new requirement'.
Their marketing really is impressive. It just works, no matter what.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Yes, but that changes little. It's beyond elitist to think "any kind of high end gaming" is sub 0.5% or even 1% or whatever of games released on one platform in one year. Make that "any kind of high end AAA gaming" and it's completely different.

I assume you keep obsessing about my exact wording in order to try and prove your point so let me clarify further what I meant by this.

To me, high end gaming is the ability to play the latest, and most graphically demanding titles at their maxed out (or at least very near to) settings. IMO, you are not getting close to maxing out a game that supports RT, unless you have at least some of the RT options turned on (the most impactful ones). Since a large proportion of the latest graphically demanding games support RT, you will be missing out on a significant aspect of their graphics without the ability to run RT. To me, that is not high end gaming. And no, that's not me being elitist. Look at my signature, I am one of the people missing out.

If I were able to upgrade right now, I wouldn't consider an 5700X or a 1080Ti a significant upgrade over what I already have, I would however consider a 6700XT a significant upgrade, not because it's 20-25% faster than the other two, but because it allows me to activate all of the graphical features in the latest graphically demanding games. And I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but yes, I would consider the 3060Ti a bigger upgrade again, because while it may be marginally slower than the 6700XT in non RT rendering (I'm using TPU's database for these comparisons), it's significantly faster in RT rendering, and that represents a high proportion of the aforementioned "latest graphically demanding games". Plus DLSS.

 

[DavidGraham]

It was there long before RTX. PhysX demos showing large scale fluid simulations and 100k rigid bodies also were marketing promises just made up to make Titan GPUs - sold at high margins - the 'new requirement'.

Look again, this is not marketing anymore, DXR is picking up faster than you've personally even thought of, developers are converging on the tech even across consoles, not having an RT capable GPU in 2021 really does impact your visual experience in at least a dozen high profile games, and in a great many future ones.

And please no silly comparisons to PhysX, this is DXR, an industry standard across PCs and consoles, I see a lot of AMD supporters slamming on DXR this way because they are feeling left out for 3 years now, but it doesn't change what DXR is. I am sure they wouldn't have felt the same way if it was the other way around.

Besides, the PhysX era was during the 8800GTX, Tesla, and Fermi. The Titan era was the era of TXAA, HairWorks, WaveWorks, and the precursor effects to hardware RT: PCSS, HFTS, and VXAO (collectively known as ShadoWorks).

 

[JoeJ]

Look again, this is not marketing anymore, DXR is picking up faster than you've personally even thought of, developers are converging on the tech even across consoles, not having an RT capable GPU in 2021 really does impact your visual experience in a dozen of high profile games, and in a great many future ones.

When DXR/RTX was announced, i knew it's here to stay, even with it's 'broken' API and restrictions. But i do indeed wonder we already have 15%.
The problem is not developer adoption, but availability and so end user adoption. Nobody is guilty for that, but we have to deal with it and accept the delay. Personally i don't feel i miss a lot, and it's better the majority is with me here, than them being disappointed and quitting gaming / switch to console.

And please no silly comparisons to PhysX, this is DXR, an industry standard across PCs and consoles, I see a lot of AMD supporters slamming on DXR this way because they are feeling left out for 3 years now, but it doesn't change what DXR is. I am sure they wouldn't have felt the same way if it was the other way around.

It's not silly, just becasue this time NV is finally more successful. Practice is the same: Present new features to justify huge chips and prices. Usually chips get smaller, not larger. And HW becomes cheaper, not more expensive. Turing was the opposite of that.
DXR is API standard of Microsoft, and i still think it was NV proposing it by using Optix. The industry has to use that an PC and XBox, but this does not proof they are happy with it. Otherwise XBox would not have more flexibility than we have on PC, which indicates this standard is not good enough.
Those which are not hyped from RT games are not automatically AMD fans. Most of them surely just think the visuals are not so much better to pay twice the money for a GPU. Finally it's simply not true AMD RT is 'not capable'. If you think so, you also think Turing is not capable, which i doubt.

The PhysX area lasted a long time, and the videos i mentioned are not that old. Titan was a thing then already for sure.
However, i don't have a problem with NV pushing big GPUs or researching high end practices. They want to make good business, which is fine. Selling powerful GPUs at low price would be bad business. Max setting for enthusiasts - all that is fine.
But it can't become mainstream. RT on PC is no mainstream yet, it is optional. Simply because it is too expensive. To make it a standard feature, we need cheaper GPUs supporting it, and even the slowest one will be 'capable' enough.
No idea how many years it will take - i guess at least three. Til then, nobody should feel left behind. That's way more important than rays and what they can achieve.

 

[DegustatoR]

The problem is not developer adoption, but availability and so end user adoption. Nobody is guilty for that, but we have to deal with it and accept the delay. Personally i don't feel i miss a lot, and it's better the majority is with me here, than them being disappointed and quitting gaming / switch to console.

The majority of what? There's no way of buying a new GPU or console without RT h/w support.

 

[JoeJ]

The majority of what? There's no way of buying a new GPU or console without RT h/w support.

The majority of those keeping current GPU and hoping it lasts until crisis is over
Last year i had to upgrade because GPU died. Got Vega 56 easily back then. But idk if older GPUs are still available / manufactured... you may be right.
What is the cheapest GPU people could by then, if MSRP were normal? No more RTX1600 or GCN stuff? Meaning, nothing below 400?

 

[DegustatoR]

The majority of those keeping current GPU and hoping it lasts until crisis is over

I'm positive that the majority would be buying these 3080s and 6800s if the prices would be normal. RT h/w would be just a bonus to them really.

 

[DegustatoR]

What is the cheapest GPU people could by then, if MSRP were normal? No more RTX1600 or GCN stuff? Meaning, nothing below 400?

Current gen? 3060 and 6700XT at $329 / $480 respectively. 2060 were sold at $280 prior to mining boom and there are 6600/XT coming soon. Below that it's Turing 16 series and various 5x0/5x00 AMD cards without RT h/w - but you'd argue that anything below 2060 is too slow for any sort of RT anyway.

 

[JoeJ]

Uh-oh - 326 for 3060 is pretty ok. I take back my worries!
Seems i forgot Ampere was announced at fair prices. Sorry guys!

 

[DegustatoR]

Uh-oh - 326 for 3060 is pretty ok. I take back my worries!
Seems i forgot Ampere was announced at fair prices. Sorry guys!

Yeah it would be a completely different market if not for the ETH boom.