Full Detail Response from AGEIA
- Thread starter onetimeposter
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mckmas8808
Legend
pso said:
Its not pointless. The more we get the better.
onetimeposter
Banned
also you have to consider the real "benchmark" wil be given when they test it on both PS3 and Xbox 360 FINAL debugging kits of which Xbox 360 right about NOW and PS3 in december.
again, they said this is according to the public data available to them, not from the final development kits because they dont have final dev kits for both systems.
again, they said this is according to the public data available to them, not from the final development kits because they dont have final dev kits for both systems.
mckmas8808
Legend
I still don't understand why they would make such a huge mistake at a developer's conference.
BTOA said:
I'm not basing that on demos, I'm basing that on what AGEIA said. What I wrote in the post you quoted is a pretty accurate reflection of AGEIA's stance I think.
To be very explicit, look at AGEIA's own slide from CEDEC:
Translation from one:
" Scalabilities for Advanced Hardwares
Xbox 360
+ Just like dual-core PC, but uses 3 PPC cores with HT
+ Shared L2 cache
+ Probably shares the cores with other Xbox 360 libraries
PS3
+ PPC processor
+ Multiple "Synergistic Processing Elements" (SPE)
+ Greater simulation potential than PC or Xbox 360
+ All simulation classes are available"
Look at what SenatorMonkey reported from GDCE:
"Having attended this talk today, it was slightly different than noted above. The comparison was that on a single-core system, it ran at about 5fps and occupied the full processor. On a dual-core system with the PhysX chip, it ran at about 40fps, and took only 25% of one core.
Regarding having the fluid dynamics and cloth simulation be more suited to PS3, this was mainly due to cache issues according to the presenter. They're still looking at the X360 architecture to see exactly what they can get out of it, but right now they're concerned that they'd take up too much CPU to do these things through Novodex, since they'd like up likely one full core or more processing power. I believe that on PS3, they figure in 1 SPU to do the same, since it's massively iterated calculations on smaller datasets, which is perfectly suited to the SPU architecture."
So they certainly did make quite explicit comparative statements between these systems at these conferences, even if they "weren't meant to". And they don't deny that they made these statements either.
Add in the PR quotes from this statement:
"The presentation uses implied assumptions on the relative power of the platforms from single core, dual core, console and PC-with-PhysX platforms, based on publicly-available information. The only platforms for which there is actual comparison data at AGEIA are the single core PC, dual core PC and PhysX platforms. There is no current data on the PS3 or Xbox360 on relative performance. The implied difference in performance was from assumptions about the number of compute elements and memory architectures, and how well these might fit to various simulation algorithms as enabled by typical game developers. The difficulty in predicting performance across platforms is that physics is inside a game loop where many other game-related processing is taking place. Again, we don’t have a simple metric like fill-rate that is greatly dependent on the capabilities of the graphics chip and less dependent on what is going on in the game."
And I'll add another quote from Andy Keane in a follow up email to my own further queries:
"Any analyses on differences that I have seen to date are analyses of the architectures from specifications released by the console maker."
Note that they did not refute these analyses - in fact they recognise and acknowledge that they were there - they now simply class them as being based on architecture etc. rather than benchmark data, and threw in the variability of the game loop as an example of how difficult it would be to benchmark (even though this did not stop them from doing so with their own application on PhysX and dual/single core PCs
).So putting all that together I think it's reasonable to at least say - as I had earlier:
"They indicated at the conferences that PS3 had more capacity/potential when running novodex than X360 and/or that it had a more suitable architecture for fluid/cloth dynamics. The official PR line now is that any suggestions made at these conferences was prediction/expectation based on architectural/system analysis rather than benchmark data. So..draw your own conclusions I guess."
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This is really a dead topic now but I'll add some little points none-the-less. Aegia must have working SDKs for devs to use, which means they've run the simulations and know which platforms can handle what level of simluation. They need to commincate with developers the difference between platforms for when those devs create cross-platform games at least. If one machine can handle a fluid dynamic simulation much better than the other, the devs need to know to balance the game as such. If the game is reliant on those fluid dynamics the less-able machine will suffer. This information will be communicated - if not by Aegia then the devs working on the systems will eventually let out that they were unable to include some simulation aspects on one of the platforms. No different to hearing now how textures are downgraded for PS2 ports.
This places Aegia in a tough spot. If when they communicate important development knowledge not really intended for the public, the internet picks it up and spreads it around and upsets their development partners who don't like their hardware being presented as less capable (even if that's the truth, as different hardwares have different strengths and weaknesses), they get a bad rep. But they still need to convey this information for the benefit of the devs. The only obvious solution is more NDA's. Perhaps at future conferences all visitors will need to be under NDA, though I doubt that could stop leaks.
Still, what does it mean in the end for a platform that's better at FD than its rival? Mostly I'd say quality in some visual effects. For instance in a cross-platform game where characters wear cloaks, one platform might have more samples for the cloaks' motion, resulting in smoother movement and no penetrations of the character model. Nice, but it won't impact the playing of the game. There would also be those few platform specific titles that'd make use of those features to their full extent (EyeToy Virtual Bathtime).
And now we can wait for the next big world-shattering news story when some company tells developers it's AI system for console and PC's works well, but has an advantage on XB360, only to be smacked by the email influx from an angry Japanese corporate behemoth for speaking the truth and 200,000 disbelieving Sony fanguys.
This places Aegia in a tough spot. If when they communicate important development knowledge not really intended for the public, the internet picks it up and spreads it around and upsets their development partners who don't like their hardware being presented as less capable (even if that's the truth, as different hardwares have different strengths and weaknesses), they get a bad rep. But they still need to convey this information for the benefit of the devs. The only obvious solution is more NDA's. Perhaps at future conferences all visitors will need to be under NDA, though I doubt that could stop leaks.
Still, what does it mean in the end for a platform that's better at FD than its rival? Mostly I'd say quality in some visual effects. For instance in a cross-platform game where characters wear cloaks, one platform might have more samples for the cloaks' motion, resulting in smoother movement and no penetrations of the character model. Nice, but it won't impact the playing of the game. There would also be those few platform specific titles that'd make use of those features to their full extent (EyeToy Virtual Bathtime
).And now we can wait for the next big world-shattering news story when some company tells developers it's AI system for console and PC's works well, but has an advantage on XB360, only to be smacked by the email influx from an angry Japanese corporate behemoth for speaking the truth and 200,000 disbelieving Sony fanguys.
Kb-Smoker said:all i can say to onetimeposter is this...
DOES anyone have a link to this presentation?
I really want to hear what they really said about all this...
Stop trolling. E-mail Ageia and you will get a response. Onetimeposter, Titanio, and I have received the same exact e-mails.
mckmas8808
Legend
pso said:
Well I hate to say it myself, but isn't this the definition of damage control?
1. Company says something important and sadly its bad news.
2. The would be consumers get pissy and revolt.
3. The initial company then makes a statment(s) that take the steam out of step 1.
CLASSIC damage control if you ask me. If not then what is damage control?
mckmas8808
Legend
serenity said:
Wow that one flew over my head. Sounds like you are talking about math.
overclocked
Veteran
mckmas8808 said:
Could not agree more. Of course they do want the best publicity from BOTH the consoles and make everyone happy esp since they are new players.
dammmmnnnnnnnnnnnn
GUYS DONT BELIEVE THESE THINGS....NONE OF WHAT IS WRITENN IS TRUE....TEAM XBOX FORUMS MADE IT ALL UP...EVERYTHING WAS HOAX...SINCE KIM IS ONLY A MEDIA COORDINATOR...I HAVE MAILED AGEIA 20 TIMES AND THEY HAVENT REPLIED TO ME YET....WHAT MAKES THIS HASAN SO SPECIAL ...THAT EVEN THE CHAIRMAN OF AGEIA WOULD BE MAILING HIM ABOUT THE SUBJECT MATTER
I SAY IT AGAIN WHAT AGEIA SAID AT GDC WAS OFFICIAL
THIS IS ALL HOAX
GO TO AGEIA'S OFFICIAL WEBSITE...........www.ageia.com
absolutely nothing is written regarding any form of clarification on x360...x360 cannot handle those features ..it is true indeeed....go to their website
GUYS DONT BELIEVE THESE THINGS....NONE OF WHAT IS WRITENN IS TRUE....TEAM XBOX FORUMS MADE IT ALL UP...EVERYTHING WAS HOAX...SINCE KIM IS ONLY A MEDIA COORDINATOR...I HAVE MAILED AGEIA 20 TIMES AND THEY HAVENT REPLIED TO ME YET....WHAT MAKES THIS HASAN SO SPECIAL ...THAT EVEN THE CHAIRMAN OF AGEIA WOULD BE MAILING HIM ABOUT THE SUBJECT MATTER
I SAY IT AGAIN WHAT AGEIA SAID AT GDC WAS OFFICIAL
THIS IS ALL HOAX
GO TO AGEIA'S OFFICIAL WEBSITE...........www.ageia.com
absolutely nothing is written regarding any form of clarification on x360...x360 cannot handle those features ..it is true indeeed....go to their website
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