rusty said:
i'll ignore the part about gamers unable to notice a difference being handicapped, because i don't really think that point is even worthy of addressing and was quite suprised to see you write that given the otherwise decent quality of your post. I agree with you about the damage, but i don't think it's possible to implement damage as we would all like to see it in such a game until the next gen consoles - the power just isn't there.
Oh, it wasn't ment as a dish towards those that really can't notice the difference - I was actually targetting those developers with that remark that make that substitute while willingly sacrificing an important aspect of a game only to be able to pump out the graphics as graphics seem to be one thing most developers are trying to sell their games on. Appologies if it came across the wrong way - if anything, it just shows my bitterness and complete disgust towards those developers.
Project Gotham sadly made that transition - while PGR1 was a blazing 60 Hz (although ironically not the reflections on the cars...), they cut corners in part 2 just to give it that extra emphasis on the graphics they were going for. Apex was another one.... first being hyped to the fullest with incredible graphics (they were really quite nice) - yet in the end, 30 Hz because they couldn't get the damn thing running constant after adding anti-aliasing - or that's the version I heard anyway.
I'm not sure what to think of this anymore, really. To me, it's an apparent flaw of many Xbox games out there (I mentioned the same thing in Halo 1 and 2 threads) and it's sad to see the trend continue. I guess it's obvious why this trend continues with Forza: Gran Turismo is undoubtedly widely regarded as THE benchmark and if you want to one up them, your best bet is by doing something similar, similar dedication to physics and well, better graphics. I guess at some point, there are design choices to be made and sadly, framerate seems to be the one that always gets the shafting. Half the framerate and for the most part, you'll have double the time to perform all those lovely calculations and squeeze those textures in there.
I also guess I have to respect the fact that there are gamers that don't notice the difference - but I'm actually more inclined to think that they are just much less aware of it. Maybe they've played too many 30 Hz games to notice or even care? I'd like to think though that a gamer who has actively spent some time on the GT series will notice the difference in precision, motion and movement when playing a game at half the framerate. Even if they can't put the finger on what the difference is, I'm sure they should be at least aware that there is a difference.
I do have one question though: What good is it to have the physics engine run at a whooping 180Hz when the game visuals itself only allows for 30 Hz? I've studied physics, so I know that a faster rate will improve precision (obviously) - yet, what does that extra precision give the gamer if he's only able to see them at 30 Hz intervals? Even if the input is clocked at 180Hz, how would the player be actively able to adjust the movements of his car if he can only see the car's reaction in again 30 Hz intervals? And - again - if he can not react accoardingly because the fast enough feedback isn't there - how will you ever be able to enjoy those extremely precise physics calculations running in the background? In GT4 i.e. I can at least say that the game runs at 60 Hz and it gives you the feeling that you are on that track feeling the bumps and every movement applied to the wheel - regardless how subtle - is instantly shown at a blazing 60 Hz interval on the screen.
rusty said:
First of all, the scores speak for themselves at the moment - forza scores equal to or higher than gt4 on every review i had seen (as of yesterday - haven't looked at any new ones)... it must be doing something right, because i'm sure we can all agree that GT4 is a good game.
I'm happy to accept the fact that Forza does seem to do many things right - possibly things the GT series does not. Heck, there are enough flaws in the GT series that leave a lot to be desired, yet as a game targeting car-philes, purists, it does a fantastic job. GT4 with the wheel feels quite real - something I have yet to experience in any other game. I doubt Forza or anyother game at 30 fps can give me that - in fact, the only game I think might top it (or thought it would) is Konami's Racing Enthusia. The higher scores Forza is getting may be also attributed to various factors - factors I wasn't even discussing or debatting. It may also be that the are using a different benchmark to rate it as well.... Well, as I said, it may be the better more fun game for them, but I'm yet to see that it's also better to those that put the emphasis on the realism aspect (sans damage), people that love cars for all they're worth.
I do still stand firm though that if a game ever wants to beat the GT series or be perceived as being better and the new standard, it at least has to be 60 Hz. If it doesn't, it just isn't in the same league.
