Formula 1 - 2009 Season

[_xxx_]

Quite simple, power/weight ratio with smaller engine usually won't win against brute force of a huge engine (provided good traction in both cases). Neither 0-100 nor beyond 250, which is what I was referring to.

Good example, Smart Coupé has about 4.9 ratio but will get smeared across the street by any big-engined car with higher ratio, say a SLR. Both have quite similar aerodynamics and traction, both are RWD.

EDIT: or here from Wiki:

In 2003 German tuninghouse Brabus created a prototype version of the Roadster Coupé with two merged 3-cylinder engines to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Solituderennen. This V6 bi-turbo powerplant had a maximum power of 218 PS (215 hp/160 kW) for a weight of only 840 kg (1852 lb), giving it the same power-to-weight ratio as a Porsche 911 Carrera 4S. Smart claimed the car could accelerate to 100 km/h (62 mph) in under six seconds.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Didnt they do a poor job on that thing than? The basic mk2 elise (130bhp, around 900kg) does 0 - 100 in a little under 6 seconds.

Ofcourse you need powerrrr, but the 500+bhp some B cars had seem to qualify for that I think?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Quite simple, power/weight ratio with smaller engine usually won't win against brute force of a huge engine (provided good traction in both cases). Neither 0-100 nor beyond 250, which is what I was referring to.

Good example, Smart Coupé has about 4.9 ratio but will get smeared across the street by any big-engined car with higher ratio, say a SLR. Both have quite similar aerodynamics and traction, both are RWD.

EDIT: or here from Wiki:

That is not a good example, because A it's a prototype car that hasn't even been properly tested and B less that 6 can mean anything. I didn't say smaller engine with similar power/weight ratio will win, but tie. SLR has about 2.75kg per HP and that smart has 3.9kgs, so it's hardly a fair comparison... I would imagine that the SLR has some other advantages like E.g. faster gearbox aswell being a +500k supercar and all...

There are many more examples proving my point, pretty much all of them actually.

 

[dizietsma]

The old group B cars were later turned into Rallycross cars in the UK and they did under 3sec 0-100km/h

Look where they are now

http://www.hydrexracing.co.uk/site/rallycross/thecar.htm

1.9s !!!

I think the old Group B cars would stand a good chance against the new cars, once you had them on modern tyres.

 

[Bludd]

Enough with the rally bickering already. This is an F1 thread, we should be talking about what will happen to McLaren at the FIA WMSC.

Dave Ryan driven out as McLaren face up to expulsion fear over FIA charges

 

[_xxx_]

Dr Evil, what I meant is, it might work 0-100, but as soon as the speed goes higher, the aerodynamics will work against the car with less power. Thus the (much) higher powered car will always win as we go towards 200 and 300 km/h and beyond. That's why Veyron is comparable to F1 cars and those rally cars aren't.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Dr Evil, what I meant is, it might work 0-100, but as soon as the speed goes higher, the aerodynamics will work against the car with less power. Thus the (much) higher powered car will always win as we go towards 200 and 300 km/h and beyond. That's why Veyron is comparable to F1 cars and those rally cars aren't.

I think we all understand that. But I think the start of the discussion was whether B cars would be faster than WRC cars. Top speed doesnt matter as they were never build with top speed in mind, unlike super cars.

Enough with the rally bickering already. This is an F1 thread, we should be talking about what will happen to McLaren at the FIA WMSC.

Dave Ryan driven out as McLaren face up to expulsion fear over FIA charges

A money fine at most I think. There is no point in excluding them from anything, especially as they are not performing anyway and only got 1 or 2 points.

 

[Bludd]

I wonder why Max hates Ron so much ...

 

[catisfit]

I wonder why Max hates Ron so much ...

...well somebody tipped the News of the World off about his extra-curricular activities

 

[Bludd]

...well somebody tipped the News of the World off about his extra-curricular activities

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/oh-no/

Some Machiavellians - including one of the FIA Stewards in Melbourne - believe that Dennis was behind Mosley’s sex scandal last year. Radovan Novak was sufficiently misguided to have spoken about it publicly at the time, and he was forced to make an embarrassing retraction. I don’t believe that Dennis was involved for one minute. Why? Because on the day the story broke Dennis rang me at home and was genuinely perplexed and wanted to know if I had any idea who might be behind it. Not the act of the perpetrator, is it? My view then was that it was Mosley’s own doing - and it remains my view.

I too don't think Ron Dennis did it.

 

[catisfit]

It was a smiley. Besides, I don't think it matters to Mosley what anybody else thinks

Maybe the FIA are questioning (as I am) how it seems that senior people in McLaren are apparently free to perform any unsporting action that they choose, regardless of how it may affect the team, without the knowledge of any of their peers or superiors?

First Coughlan, now Ryan. We were led to believe in both cases that these were rogue elements acting completely alone in matters which had a direct influence on the team (and also happened to be severely unsporting, untruthful and had they been successful, beneficial to the team). Even if these were indeed rogue elements acting alone, it still suggests a systemic disregard for being sporting or truthful in the name of gaining advantage.

EDIT: I see in that blog that such a thought is labelled "conspiracy theorist"

I have no particular like or dislike of McLaren, but it has to be said that events of the past few seasons have repeatedly shown them in a very unfavourable, unsporting and untruthful light, and that may be reason enough why Mosley dislikes Ron so much :smile:

 

[Davros]

According to some paddock insiders, a deal may be reached whereby Hamilton stays at McLaren but Dennis either leaves or formally renounces any involvement in future Formula One activities and leaves the running of the team entirely in Whitmarsh’s hands.

whats it to do with ron ?

 

[Bludd]

He's the big honcho at McLaren and even though he is not team principal, he is the boss. If Mosley is in fact doing this because he hates Ron Dennis so much, it's insane and petty and they should both get out of the sport.

 

[catisfit]

If Mosley is in fact doing this because he hates Ron Dennis so much, it's insane and petty and they should both get out of the sport.

I definitely agree with that. If anything other than the issue at hand influences the decision in any way, then it will be indefensible.

Deliberately misleading the stewards (and continuing to do so even when confronted with evidence to the contrary, according to the charge sheet) is still a very serious crime, though. I wouldn't expect just a "slap on the wrist".

 

[DJ12]

The old group B cars were later turned into Rallycross cars in the UK and they did under 3sec 0-100km/h

Look where they are now

http://www.hydrexracing.co.uk/site/rallycross/thecar.htm

1.9s !!!

I think the old Group B cars would stand a good chance against the new cars, once you had them on modern tyres.

Yeah I loved those old Group B Ford Fiestas, oh wait....

That is a modern car with an old (highly tuned) engine.

I definitely agree with that. If anything other than the issue at hand influences the decision in any way, then it will be indefensible.

Deliberately misleading the stewards (and continuing to do so even when confronted with evidence to the contrary, according to the charge sheet) is still a very serious crime, though. I wouldn't expect just a "slap on the wrist".

Come on now, where was the threat of banning when Schumacher "reversed" into Alonso's path (or was it the other way around?) and messed up his lap a couple of years ago. He lied about it too.

At the end of the day it's all politics, if this was Ferrari who have lied consistantly in the past it wouldn't even be a story.

 

[Davros]

If Mosley is in fact doing this because he hates Ron Dennis so much, .

why would Mosely be involved in brokering a deal to keep lewis at mclaren, and why would lewis blame ron in any way

 

[dizietsma]

Yeah I loved those old Group B Ford Fiestas, oh wait....

That is a modern car with an old (highly tuned) engine.

.

That's why I said "look where they are now" because obviously they are still not using the cars from the 1980's ..doh!

Rallycross car, ex Group B, 150 000 miles, one careful owbner, still winning races. Yeah right....

As I said, the old rallycross Group B cars did 0-100kmh in under 3s, new cars are doing under 2.

Do I make myself clear on second reading ?

 

[Bludd]

why would Mosely be involved in brokering a deal to keep lewis at mclaren, and why would lewis blame ron in any way

I don't know, maybe Lewis feels betrayed and Mosley don't want Lewis out of the sport.

If Lewis left McLaren today, there's no drive for him this year. Who's on the bubble in F1? Piquet, but Hamilton in the same team as Fernando Alonso? No way. It's pragmatic for Lewis Hamilton to stay at McLaren at least out this year. Maybe he has a clause in his contract where he can get out of it if the team makes him look bad, which they have, but he's helped.

Edit: Here's a piece by Ed Gorman of The Times which is interesting

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6062003.ece

Another one, more of an opinion piece, by Matthew Syed
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/matthew_syed/article6054328.ece

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Well im sure there are plenty of drivers that could be kicked out if their teams got a chance to sign Hamilton. FI (not that you want to drive for them) could easy kick out Fisi, STR could just kick out Bourdois which is useless (and the STR is the RBR car so if they'd get the same parts it would even be pretty good), RBR could kick out Webber, he doesnt do more than average most of the time anyway, Williams could maybe kick out nakajimi though he's probably a pack in with the engine deal so maybe not, but Toyota could kick out Trulli (damn I miss the trulli train btw) which apart from quali isnt much use either and if Hamilton really is as good as everybody says he is than the Toyota should be on the first 2 rows all the time, maybe even challaging the brawns from time to time. I'd say Toyota wouldnt think twice about changing trulli for Hamilton.

 

[catisfit]

Come on now, where was the threat of banning when Schumacher "reversed" into Alonso's path (or was it the other way around?) and messed up his lap a couple of years ago. He lied about it too.

As I recall (hazily), the stewards elected not to allow Ferrari to present their case (which was that it was accidental). You can't deliberately mislead stewards if they won't admit your evidence

Sure Ferrari are no angels (understatement ), but you can't rewrite history in an attempt to make it look like Ferrari "got away with this" before.

At the end of the day it's all politics, if this was Ferrari who have lied consistantly in the past it wouldn't even be a story.

It is not "all politics" when a team is charged with (and let's not forget, has accepted blame, apologised and even sacked people for) deliberately misleading stewards.

It is a serious offence, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Ferrari. I have no idea why they are even mentioned relating to this.