Feasibility of distributed computing across consoles over the internet *spawn

Your going to require a call out of his credentials, I'm afraid I'm going to need yours, I have a feeling you haven't done any parallel computational stuff at all or else you'd realise all the problems with this :p.

It's interesting to know yours, when you're not even able to quote an image
 
Extradionary claims require Extradionary evidence

So far you have provided no evidence.

no one made claims. you've registrated when ps3 was near to launch, then you disappaired and came those days to populate this thread only to say "no this is not possible", and you ask for credentials? :rolleyes:
for you curiosity I don't have experiences with console hardware but at least I work in IT, I've started to work with the turbo pascal, so a lot of time ago, and then, C, C++, PHP and so on, after that I'm a senior microsoft systemist with more than 10 years in big projects.
So ok I'm not mark rein, I'm not Gabe, I'm nothing, but now tell me who are you, came on, I'm waiting
 
It's interesting to know yours, when you're not even able to quote an image
Wut.

That image is of a temporary press event enclosure or similar being erected. It's not going to be some secret sauce cloud multi-petaflop computing datacenter. That image has virtually no bearing whatsoever on anything discussed in this thread.

Anyway, thank you for confirming, by means of constantly dodging any questions on this matter, that whenever you say "MS could do this", you have no actual qualifications to judge wether that is actually feasible or not.
 
Wut.

That image is of a temporary press event enclosure or similar being erected. It's not going to be some secret sauce cloud multi-petaflop computing datacenter.

Oh really? are you serious? did I never wrote this kind of BS? or you like to troll?


That image has virtually no bearing whatsoever on anything discussed in this thread.

maybe you've to start learning to read the title of a thread.


Anyway, thank you for confirming, by means of constantly dodging any questions on this matter, that whenever you say "MS could do this", you have no actual qualifications to judge wether that is actually feasible or not.

as you have to deny. no one.
 
I've started to work with the turbo pascal, so a lot of time ago, and then, C, C++, PHP and so on, after that I'm a senior microsoft systemist with more than 10 years in big projects.

I know SNR is low in this thread, but I cannot help wonder what the hell is a "microsoft systemist?" It looks like a religion, which makes some sense as one can argue this thread belongs to RPSC now.
 
I know SNR is low in this thread, but I cannot help wonder what the hell is a "microsoft systemist?" It looks like a religion, which makes some sense as one can argue this thread belongs to RPSC now.

I know SNR is low, but you've to blame first who talk about nvidia console, playstation4, etc.
Here we call a systemist what you call system engineer
 
@Xenio

Why should MS invest in cloud gaming/computing when always online is still problematic for the majority of Xbox customers?!
The infrastructures are not there to sustain cloud gaming/computing, the customers won't use it or literally can't use it but MS should do it anyway even if it is not commercially viable?!

Cloud gamin IMO is the future but there are steps to be made before we get there, it won't happen overnight.
 
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I know SNR is low in this thread, but I cannot help wonder what the hell is a "microsoft systemist?" It looks like a religion, which makes some sense as one can argue this thread belongs to RPSC now.
The Church of Systemology?
 
but you're counting as always playing all the console in the world, I think that it will be around 10% of total consoles sent to the customers. (and more the console's will be year after year, more the computational power from xbox cloud than datacenters)

This is a ridiculous suggestion. Putting aside the technical issues which you're refusing to acknowledge, how would something like this sit with the consumer? Do you seriously expect a casual xbox owner like myself to spend my electricity, internet bandwidth and upload/download limits to fund your gaming habit? Because thats what your suggestion amounts too. If im not using my xbox, i dont want it utilising my utilites to give you more graphics power.

And another thing, how do you load balance this? What happens when 30% of gamers are using their xboxs simultaneously? Your available power per user drops so does that make any game designed for your 5TFLOP target unplayable?
 
@Xenio

Why should MS invest in cloud gaming/computing when always online is still problematic for the majority of Xbox customers?!
The infrastructures are not there to sustain cloud gaming/computing, the customers won't use it or literally can't use it but MS should do it anyway even if it is not commercially viable?!

Cloud gamin IMO is the future but there are steps to be made before we get there, it won't happen overnight.

because there're concrete chances that will be the last console generation and a machine born to work in tandem with CC can last 20 years or more
what customers can't use now, I think will be the standard in the next years. Today in japan there're 1 Gbit internet connection, and anyway a serious gamer, the hardcore, the early adopters, have a serious connection in almost all the big cities, here we have 100 MBit fiber connections, but there're special "gamers" adsl services with really low ping.

If durango is a console though for last in the future, CC it's the only way to do it "upgradable" and never old.
And it fits perfectly with a monthly payment, more than xbox live gold


ridiculous

back to discuss when you'll can be an educated person.
 
back to discuss when you'll can be an educated person.

Okay then, so explain to me how this idea would be marketed to me and all the other casual/party gamers MS hopes to pick up this generation.

How are you/MS going to convince me that it's a good thing for my new xbox to be using my electricity/internet for the benefit of other people while I'm not using it?
 
I remember the time when Kinect should be not possible at all, and the amount of data and the latency etc etc. And finally kinect is here, working as should.
I don't remember Kinect ever being impossible, but it also isn't working quite as it should, or at least wasn't when it released, and latency is still a considerable issue that affects certain game types (and is present on all).

And if there's latency? there're way to Hide it.
You can't hide it without changing the feel of the game, and potentially making it look very rough. Let's say you haven't had updated graphics for an enemy troop for a few frames. Should you just draw the old position in the new place as the player's camera turns? That'd be back to DOOM style graphics.

I told you several times that I think that this could work not "per frame" and you still want to ignore this.
That's not how you started this conversation. You were talking about cloud-computing for graphics.
If you have to compute extreme complex geometry tessellation, or physics, as buildings that crashes down, or 50+ pathfindings algorithms or more AI from you world game (thinks at skyrim with 20.000 bots that populates the worlds and acts credible) etc. you don't need to do this every frame, cloud can compute this and send to you.
This is true and possible. Consoles could cloud-compute non-time-critical events. Again, that's not how you started this conversation though. If we get past the idea of realtime distributed computing of a console's realtime game requirements over several units scattered across the internet, which is impossible and will remain so without incredible interconnections that don't introduce 100+ ms lag, there's potential for consoles to create richer worlds than a single box can manage. However, that'll be limited to certain game types and won't be appropriate for many game types, at which point you are basically talking about persistent worlds rather than realtime distributed computing. And that's something far easier to manage with servers than relying on other people's consoles. For one, some of us switch off our consoles. For another, before the console could work on your game it'd need to be populated with sufficient data, so you'd need a system that searches for available console nodes, distributes jobs, uploads maybe hundreds or thousands of megabytes data for that console to work on (you can't limit it to whoever owns the game or you'd have no idea how much performance was available) which'll have to be supplied by the game-playing consoles IO, so not only is it streaming graphics for the player but also streaming graphics to nodes 1 through 4 to create algorithmic cities,, and be able to replace that node immediately when the owner switches the console on to play their own game.

Things like Gaikai are server based. Any distributed workloads are handled locally. Seti/Folding are non-realtime problems. The infrastructure isn't there for true distributed computing and won't be even starting for a decade IMO. The latency in distributing through internet servers isn't going to go away no matter how fast your final residential BB connections are, and that means 100+ ms delays on data from any node. Designing a game around such random packets is going to massively limit what jobs you can use distributed computing for.
 
Okay then, so explain to me how this idea would be marketed to me and all the other casual/party gamers MS hopes to pick up this generation.
Now I've moved the thread to the technical forum, as it presents numerous technical challenges, it's best if we leave the human concerns out .
 
This is true and possible. Consoles could cloud-compute non-time-critical events. Again, that's not how you started this conversation though. If we get past the idea of realtime distributed computing of a console's realtime game requirements over several units scattered across the internet, which is impossible and will remain so without incredible interconnections that don't introduce 100+ ms lag, there's potential for consoles to create richer worlds than a single box can manage. However, that'll be limited to certain game types and won't be appropriate for many game types, at which point you are basically talking about persistent worlds rather than realtime distributed computing. And that's something far easier to manage with servers than relying on other people's consoles. For one, some of us switch off our consoles. For another, before the console could work on your game it'd need to be populated with sufficient data, so you'd need a system that searches for available console nodes, distributes jobs, uploads maybe hundreds or thousands of megabytes data for that console to work on (you can't limit it to whoever owns the game or you'd have no idea how much performance was available) which'll have to be supplied by the game-playing consoles IO, so not only is it streaming graphics for the player but also streaming graphics to nodes 1 through 4 to create algorithmic cities,, and be able to replace that node immediately when the owner switches the console on to play their own game.

Things like Gaikai are server based. Any distributed workloads are handled locally. Seti/Folding are non-realtime problems. The infrastructure isn't there for true distributed computing and won't be even starting for a decade IMO. The latency in distributing through internet servers isn't going to go away no matter how fast your final residential BB connections are, and that means 100+ ms delays on data from any node. Designing a game around such random packets is going to massively limit what jobs you can use distributed computing for.

thanks for the your answer
I think about two different situation,
the first is when a lot of consoles are always online and with game data inside the internal disk (but the whole disk can be hosted in the cloud)
and the second when the critical mass of always online console is not yet here

Both the situations could, maybe, be solved with a dynamic balancing between the console cloud, the servers and the local console;
things that need fast interactions with the player are best locally, in the near zone the servers and for distant places, the xbox cloud
A sort of LOD with fast interactive reactions zone rather Z distance
aside of this I see how well can perform on the geometry the xbox cloud, at the load of level the XC can provide with heavy tessellation, deformation, computed animations and so on, there're a lot of effects that don't depends so much on latency, such as water simulation, snow/rain simulation, and given 5-10 TF from server+xb-cloud, you can calculate new shadow maps (night/day or other cases), modify partially textures in almost realtime (maybe is possible to slowly feed the 5.5 GB with some assets from the cloud as you proceed in the level)

you know, this should be a new approach and a lot of problem will jump from new things, and there's some type of games that fits better just like open worlds games, or racing games too, or games based on turns as RPG where even 200 ms of latency is not a problem, and others that needs some deep thoughts and smarter approach as FPS, 3d platform and so on
 
@Xenio

Again always connected/online is problematic for the majority of customers ergo cloud computing/gaming will be even more problematic.
You want MS to go from XBL to cloud gaming in few years but the reality is that MS main market the US is behind Japan and Kore in therms of internet/infrastructures and Japan is lost cause for MS.
Not to mention that in the cloud gaming race Sony is ahead.
 
Gaikai et al are more properly termed 'remote gameplay' the only actual data being transferred between the remote client and the server is user input on one side aand audio visual data from the other. Remote distributed computing (ie a shared common workload) is not possible for current internet infrastructure and it's latency penalties. A look up to RAM is measured in nano-seconds, tcp/ip is measured in milliseconds. Nothing can hide that in a real time system.
 
Gaikai et al are more properly termed 'remote gameplay' the only actual data being transferred between the remote client and the server is user input on one side aand audio visual data from the other. Remote distributed computing (ie a shared common workload) is not possible for current internet infrastructure and it's latency penalties. A look up to RAM is measured in nano-seconds, tcp/ip is measured in milliseconds. Nothing can hide that in a real time system.

please read my answer to Shifty, about latency and distribuited computing

@Xenio

Again always connected/online is problematic for the majority of customers ergo cloud computing/gaming will be even more problematic.
You want MS to go from XBL to cloud gaming in few years but the reality is that MS main market the US is behind Japan and Kore in therms of internet/infrastructures and Japan is lost cause for MS.
Not to mention that in the cloud gaming race Sony is ahead.

but you know that they are heavly rumored to want the console always on and always online, already..
I'm not confident that sony is ahead, Sony is ahead in streaming pre-computed 3d in video, we are talking about distributed computing between consoles-cloud, servers and local machine
 
I'm sorry but I don't see your reply addressing either point, what you describe seems more like data streaming a level in and out based on map location with all game simulation done locally. Any calculation that involves the local world state needs to be done locally, the night/day calculation might be possible but that's an awful lot of cost on the server side for a largely trivial cosmetic effect that can be replicated locally far more easily.

Take a remotely calculated landslide on a hillside road, ideal scenario I hit the trigger, client sends world state (day/night, wet/dry, etc), the server calculates what to do (how many rocks to animate falling, how much mud, etc), sends the data back to the client, it looks pretty, I move on or am now stuck because of the landslide. Worst case it calculates a land slide, sends the data back and now because I've punched a bad guy into the middle of where the landslide was to go, what does the game do? The local physics simulation doesn't know what's going on with the landslide, it's playing a baked animation, so maybe it has my bad guy pop on top of the roaring maelstrom or it just has him stand in the centre oblivious. Either looks ridiculous and a better answer just relies on more message passing between the server and client which reintroduces latency.

Anything worth doing computationally will be in close proximity to the user and thus hard to done remotely without negatively impacting the user experience i.e. I don't care how nice the rolling waves in the distance are, only the waves around my boat right now
 
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