Feasibility of distributed computing across consoles over the internet *spawn

[Xenio]

$499 and low specs doesn't make sense. Also some guy from AMD said Avatar like graphics when speaking to xbox magazine.

there's no reasons at all to believe that microsoft will not sell the console at loss, they ever did this from 2001.

As time is passing by, I believe that Infinity will use cloud to help computing to compute 3d graphics, microsoft servers+ seti@home style with consoles that are not playing (but always on, alway connected)

if 10% of the whole sales are playing in a moment, each console should have 10x the specs, 10,2 TFs and I'm not considering microsoft servers (similar to nvidia cloud 3d servers), maybe those servers have tons of AMD racks built in, so the 10 TF per console can be even low.
Anyway 5 TF per console should be trivial to obtain.

Xbox Infinity 1.2 TF sold at 349$
Xbox Infinity 5+ TF cloud Service and Live Gold (2 years) 499$ or 349$+ 15$ every months

can move engines feed rapidly the GPU with data from internet?

 

[Betanumerical]

there's no reasons at all to believe that microsoft will not sell the console at loss, they ever did this from 2001.

As time is passing by, I believe that Infinity will use cloud to help computing to compute 3d graphics, microsoft servers+ seti@home style with consoles that are not playing (but always on, alway connected)

if 10% of the whole sales are playing in a moment, each console should have 10x the specs, 10,2 TFs and I'm not considering microsoft servers (similar to nvidia cloud 3d servers), maybe those servers have tons of AMD racks built in, so the 10 TF per console can be even low.
Anyway 5 TF per console should be trivial to obtain.

Xbox Infinity 1.2 TF sold at 349$
Xbox Infinity 5+ TF cloud Service and Live Gold 499 $ or 349%+ 15$ every months

can move engines feed rapidly the GPU with data from internet?

Im not entirely convinced about distributed real time response time computing over home internet connections. Data centres sure, home interconnections :/ not so much.

It would also destroy your internet bandwidth wise (also destroy the people participating internet).

 

[Xenio]

Im not entirely convinced about distributed real time response time computing over home internet connections. Data centres sure, home interconnections :/ not so much.

It would also destroy your internet bandwidth wise (also destroy the people participating internet).

it will not, as streaming 1080P don't. Microsoft can use a QOS service to reserve BW as it always be. nothing will be destroyed.
I believe that clouding computed data is still lighter than streaming video over internet as some game services want to do (PS4 back compatibility should use streaming video over internet), what you are receiving are high compressed numbers, that maybe move engines can decompress on the fly; and infinity hardware seems, to me, built in to work with tiled data hum the whole thing make sense to me, even price fits now

 

[Betanumerical]

it will not, as streaming 1080P don't. Microsoft can use a QOS service to reserve BW as it always be. nothing will be destroyed.
I believe that clouding computed data is still lighter than streaming video over internet as some game services want to do, what you are receiving are high compressed numbers, that maybe move engines can decompress on the fly; and infinity hardware seems, to me, built in to work with tiled data hum the whole thing make sense to me, even price fits now

So not only do you have to have A number of other xboxs within B area at C bandwidth, they also need to also own game D so they have all of the data local? that doesn't seem reasonable at all.

Where also for now, ignoring the what 50-100ms+ roundtrip of most internet connections and also missing the fact that there is quite a number of internet connections in not only america but world wide that cannot stream 1080P video. To break it down further.

Average speed of the internet in America. 7.4Mb/s [0.925MB/s]. [http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/23/ak...h-korea-japan-and-hong-kong-still-far-ahead/]

Data per frame at 30 fps 0.0309 MB/s {30KB/s}
Data per frame at 60 fps 0.01545 MB/s {15KB/s}

This is no where near realistic. I am not upto date with compression for videos so I'm going to go with this.

6075 KB (The size of a uncompressed 1080P frame, 3 bytes per pixel).

You would need effectively 100x compression roughly.

So yeah :/ not realistic. Data centres with there massive fibre interconnects should be fine though.

We will not see real time graphics computations over the internet until the infrastructures gets improved massively, the pings are already a problem people complain about input lag. this will just make things horrible. You also realise your not letting other people play there games on there xbox's and there internet is being used without them knowing (I don't think people will like having 1080P video streamed over there internet for hours on end for use of someone else (whats that? 10-15GB?)). You're also going to segment the market with those that have bad internet cannot get this, and create a massively different experience a single player game / a games in general's graphics should not rely on you having a certain number of people close to you with the same console, the same game and the there internet up for taking.

 

[Xenio]

So not only do you have to have A number of other xboxs within B area at C bandwidth, they also need to also own game D so they have all of the data local? that doesn't seem reasonable at all.

Where also for now, ignoring the what 50-100ms+ roundtrip of most internet connections and also missing the fact that there is quite a number of internet connections in not only america but world wide that cannot stream 1080P video. To break it down further.

Average speed of the internet in America. 7.4Mb/s [0.925MB/s]. [http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/23/ak...h-korea-japan-and-hong-kong-still-far-ahead/]

Data per frame at 30 fps 0.0309 MB/s {30KB/s}
Data per frame at 60 fps 0.01545 MB/s {15KB/s}

This is no where near realistic. I am not upto date with compression for videos so I'm going to go with this.

6075 KB (The size of a uncompressed 1080P frame, 3 bytes per pixel).

You would need effectively 100x compression roughly.

So yeah :/ not realistic. Data centres with there massive fibre interconnects should be fine though.

We will not see real time graphics computations over the internet until the infrastructures gets improved massively, the pings are already a problem people complain about input lag. this will just make things horrible. You also realise your not letting other people play there games on there xbox's and there internet is being used without them knowing (I don't think people will like having 1080P video streamed over there internet for hours on end for use of someone else (whats that? 10-15GB?)). You're also going to segment the market with those that have bad internet cannot get this, and create a massively different experience a single player game / a games in general's graphics should not rely on you having a certain number of people close to you with the same console, the same game and the there internet up for taking.

so Sony purchased cloud gaming company Gaikai for nothing? not realistic to give BC via Gaikai services?

when I talkk about could computations for Xbox Infinity I'm not talking about streaming video but streaming tiled computed DATA (AMD use the chess board tiling when there're GPU's in crossfire, not always alternate rendering)

so each frame can be tiled using their own tech, and every tile cam from xbox cloud or DC Cloud

 

[Betanumerical]

so Sony purchased cloud gaming company Gaikai for nothing? not realistic to give BC via Gaikai services?

when I talkk about could computations for Xbox Infinity I'm not talking about streaming video but streaming tiled computed DATA (AMD use the chess board tiling when there're GPU's in crossfire, not always alternate rendering)

so each frame can be tiled using their own tech, and every tile cam from xbox cloud or DC Cloud

Your still talking about more data then the internet can provide, theres a reason RAM is so fast, a lot of the data will need to be shared between all of the XBOX's and thats going over the 30KB/frame internet tiling won't do screw all when you literally don't have the bandwidth to do anything. To think otherwise shows a clear misunderstanding of the current limitations of the internet and associated technologies.

You also haven't answered the question of latency yet.

BC over GAKAI is a different story your talking to a Sony/GAKAI data centre that have the fat interconnections mentioned in my previous posts.

Your home internet does not count as this.

Hell the game state thats relevant the graphics is probably more then 30KB for a given frame.

 

[Xenio]

Your still talking about more data then the internet can provide, theres a reason RAM is so fast, a lot of the data will need to be shared between all of the XBOX's and thats going over the 30KB/frame internet tiling won't do screw all when you literally don't have the bandwidth to do anything. To think otherwise shows a clear misunderstanding of the current limitations of the internet and associated technologies.

if it's there such limit, Gakai should not exist at all, nor should exist all the streaming film @1080P all over the world, you're 30 KB is totaly wrong because compression tech

You also haven't answered the question of latency yet.

it's no a big problem when you can mix the datacenter fast lines with the external clouding.
and no. not all data have to be computed every frame, think about 3D geometry for example, and physics, and AI and so on. your cals per frame doesn't make sense to me friend

BC over GAKAI is a different story your talking to a Sony/GAKAI data centre that have the fat interconnections mentioned in my previous posts.

Your home internet does not count as this.

if you read my post, I wrote that I suppose that both xbox cloud and AMD/microsoft datacenter are in the play

Hell the game state thats relevant the graphics is probably more then 30KB for a given frame.

it's not 30 KB, you want to ignore all the compression that exist right now, and my theory is not "per frame"
texturing and some other things should be leaved on local hardware, for example

 

[Betanumerical]

if it's there such limit, Gakai should not exist at all, nor should exist all the streaming film @1080P all over the world, you're 30 KB is totaly wrong because compression tech



it's no a big problem when you can mix the datacenter fast lines with the external clouding.
and no. not all data have to be computed every frame, think about 3D geometry for example, and physics, and AI and so on. your cals per frame doesn't make sense to me friend



if you read my post, I wrote that I suppose that both xbox cloud and AMD/microsoft datacenter are in the play



it's not 30 KB, you want to ignore all the compression that exist right now, and my theory is not "per frame"
texturing and some other things should be leaved on local hardware, for example

30KB is not enough per frame regardless of how much compression you use, GAKAI is not useless because its a single connection to a data centre.

A single connection to a data centre could work on any console with internet regardless of generation, provided you have the internet bandwidth requirements and the latency as well.

streaming good quality 1080P is ~2MB/s (iirc) then again why bother with the local console in this situation the data centre will be able to destroy it power wise anyway.

 

[Grall]

You can't rely on a data center for computing for a console; the logistics alone suggests how impossible it is. If you want to improve the looks of your game using online realtime computing, you need computing resources greater than what's in your box alone. Duplicated for all the players that will be online at any one time, with sufficient redundant capacity to cover any eventualities. So multiply by MILLIONS first year, then TENS OF MILLIONS 2nd year and onwards, distributed around the globe at dozens of locations to try and keep latency delays within reasonable levels (and still won't be enough I might add.)

The construction and running costs including staff, maintenance, utilities and so on of such an operation would be absolutely astronomical, it would totally BANKRUPT microsoft in no time whatsoever. It won't ever happen, ever.

Something like Gaikai for backwards compatibility, sure. That's very different, much lesser computing requirements (current console gen level; hardware is cheap as hell by today's standards), and comparatively few people would be running BC games at any one time compared to those running games locally on the console itself.

 

[Xenio]

You can't rely on a data center for computing for a console; the logistics alone suggests how impossible it is. If you want to improve the looks of your game using online realtime computing, you need computing resources greater than what's in your box alone. Duplicated for all the players that will be online at any one time, with sufficient redundant capacity to cover any eventualities. So multiply by MILLIONS first year, then TENS OF MILLIONS 2nd year and onwards, distributed around the globe at dozens of locations to try and keep latency delays within reasonable levels (and still won't be enough I might add.)

The construction and running costs including staff, maintenance, utilities and so on of such an operation would be absolutely astronomical, it would totally BANKRUPT microsoft in no time whatsoever. It won't ever happen, ever.

but you're counting as always playing all the console in the world, I think that it will be around 10% of total consoles sent to the customers. (and more the console's will be year after year, more the computational power from xbox cloud than datacenters)
This change the whole scenario, I think, and why should microsoft go to bankrupt when UC Berkeley and Tensilica built a 200 PETAFlops computer in Berkley with 1 billion of dollars? (and only ROD causes more than 2 bilions of dollars to microsoft last gen, they burn money as paper, if you think that they can go bankrupt, you'll wait forever)

 

[Betanumerical]

but you're counting as always playing all the console in the world, I think that it will be around 10% of total consoles sent to the customers. (and more the console's will be year after year, more the computational power from xbox cloud than datacenters)
This change the whole scenario, I think, and why should microsoft go to bankrupt when UC Berkeley and Tensilica built a 200 PETAFlops computer in Berkley with 1 billion of dollars? (and only ROD causes more than 2 bilions of dollars to microsoft last gen, they burn money as paper, if you think that they can go bankrupt, you'll wait forever)

You cannot use other machines as rendering boost its not feasible, if the bandwidth won't get you (and its ridiculously tiny) then the latency will, this is ignoring that the internet in itself has no latency or even data return time guarantees its going to be fun when one packet ends up taking 300ms to get back and the game has to sit there waiting and syncing on it. Or if the backbone gets congested and you suddenly have 500ms pings everywhere, or [insert any other 5000000 things that can go wrong with this idea].

Its plan and simple not feasible, move engines (DMA cough) or not.

 

[Xenio]

You cannot use other machines as rendering boost its not feasible, if the bandwidth won't get you (and its ridiculously tiny) then the latency will, this is ignoring that the internet in itself has no latency or even data return time guarantees its going to be fun when one packet ends up taking 300ms to get back and the game has to sit there waiting and syncing on it. Or if the backbone gets congested and you suddenly have 500ms pings everywhere, or [insert any other 5000000 things that can go wrong with this idea].

Its plan and simple not feasible, move engines (DMA cough) or not.

I remember the time when Kinect should be not possible at all, and the amount of data and the latency etc etc. And finally kinect is here, working as should. And Kinect 2 will have lower latency at all.
And if there's latency? there're way to Hide it.
I told you several times that I think that this could work not "per frame" and you still want to ignore this.
If you have to compute extreme complex geometry tessellation, or physics, as buildings that crashes down, or 50+ pathfindings algorithms or more AI from you world game (thinks at skyrim with 20.000 bots that populates the worlds and acts credible) etc
you don't need to do this every frame, cloud can compute this and send to you. And only an expert inside microsoft knows what are really the limits of such approach

 

[Grall]

Of course, an armchair expert like you with no actual experience in such matters know everything, and can accurately judge what is feasible...

 

[Xenio]

Of course, an armchair expert like you with no actual experience in such matters know everything, and can accurately judge what is feasible...

http://translate.google.com/transla...hashtag-per-latteso-evento-di-maggio-2013.php

The translation of each slide is:

1. Storm Clouds

2. More than now

3. Deep Computing

4. Petaflops> Teraflops


good read

 

[Betanumerical]

I remember the time when Kinect shoulb be not possible at all, and the amount of data and the latency etc etc. And finally kinect is here, working as should. And Kinect 2 will have lower latency at all.
And if there's latency? there're way to Hide it.
I told you several times that I think that this could work not "per frame" and you still want to ignore this.
If you have to compute extreme complex geometry tessellation, or physics, as buildings that crashesh down, or 50+ pathfindings algorithms or more AI from you world game (thinks at skyrim with 20.000 bots that populates the worlds and acts credible) etc
you don't need to do this every frame, cloud can compute this and send to you. And only an expert insiede microsoft knows what are really the limits of such approach

It isn't feasible at the moment I'm afraid, you need way more bandwidth then we have, latency is also still a issue and you cannot really hide it when its the image being displayed, I have yet to see any real evidence from you aside from and 'but other things not relevant' maybe we wouldn't keep saying its not possible if you fronted up showed us some real evidence on how it may work and this includes dealing with lost packets and also other issues such as the tiny amount of bandwidth and high latency that you have, you'd honestly spend more time sending the data then you would save rendering it on two different consoles.

But obviously you wouldn't use two right?, you'd use N, where N is the number in the local area? but what if they don't have the game? and don't have the code that is needed to run, or what if they are already in use?, or what if they have crippled internet?, what if they drop the packet you need?, what if the bandwidth gets congested?.

This is a totally unreliable and downright silly way to go about things, and until I have someone front me up some real proof otherwise I will continue to to believe so.

Also a physics simulation of a building collapsing is kinda needed on a frame by frame basis, if you don't do it like that, its going to be kind of boring seeing a building standing still then falling a bit, waiting some more then falling a bit.

http://translate.google.com/transla...hashtag-per-latteso-evento-di-maggio-2013.php

The translation of each slide is:

1. Storm Clouds

2. More than now

3. Deep Computing

4. Petaflops> Teraflops


good read

Also 100% fake, or breaking news, Microsoft to build a new petaflop super computer for every XBOX sold. They will only lose a couple billon on each but they can afford it right?.

Final Edit :.

We have enough trouble parallelising graphics on a single machine when we have a set number of cores, and low latency high bandwidth local devices to store our data, your asking people to parralelise graphics over a arbitrary number of devices that each have a unknown bandwidth and latency type, but is more then likely going to be low bandwidth and high latency.

We are better off focusing on the inherent problems that are close to home.

 

[Xenio]

Also a physics simulation of a building collapsing is kinda needed on a frame by frame basis, if you don't do it like that, its going to be kind of boring seeing a building standing still then falling a bit, waiting some more then falling a bit.

false.
only instant objects that interactes in realtime with players have to be computed locally
Ex. you hit with missiles a mountain or some buildings, Cloud can compute the right physic simulation

Also 100% fake, or breaking news, .

how could you know which rumor is real and which one is fake?
care to prove evidences instead?

until that moment any rumor will stay in the "rumors" room and not in the "fake" room

this is the only rumor out of there that is in the "viral market" style that microsoft used so much with 360 to show pads and console and other things before the announcement.
but if you're so sure, what happens if microsoft in 9-days from now, will announce cloud computing on Infinity?

 

[Betanumerical]

how could you know which rumor is real and which one is fake?
care to prove evidences instead?

until that moment any rumor will stay in the "rumors" room and not in the "fake" room

I can tell you its false by using my brain and logic, the cost for a petaflop of power is going to be millions upon millions of dollars, and now microsoft can spent that many times over, thousands even?. They cannot, and seriously anyone looking at this rumour unjaded can clearly see that its not true.

The rumours are getting outrageous, and the people who are pushing them refuse to even post any evidence of them, instead posting more rumours as evidence, show me a single logical argument that it would work and I might start to take you seriously.

Also if you want the information to be displayed back to the player it needs to be computed, and each frame that gets displayed using that physics needs to be computed.

At this very moment, as the internet stands today you're not going to be doing parallel computations on it in a interactive way that will give you any large benefit and you have provided ZERO evidence to the contrary

 

[Grall]

The translation of each slide is:

So, since when exactly were those slides proven to be genuine? Last I heard they were complete fakes created by trolls/fanboys to stir up guys like you.

The problem I have with your reasoning here is that it roughly goes like, "MS could do/afford cloud computing because *handwave* and sidestep any problems because *handwave*", with no evidence to back up your position, and no actual experience in the field either.

 

[Xenio]

, and no actual experience in the field either.

forgive me, what console's hardware have you ever built?
how much cloud software based on gpu have you implemented?

just curious to know why the others have not experience in this and you have.

anyway, another tease from twitter:

Aaron Greenberg ‏@aarongreenberg 2m
The house that Xbox built is underway, hopefully we get better weather by the 21st

Mod: Another irrelevant photo removed

 

[Betanumerical]

forgive me, what console's hardware have you ever built?
how much cloud software based on gpu have you implemented?

just curious to know why the others have not experience in this and you have.

anyway, another tease from twitter:

Your going to require a call out of his credentials, I'm afraid I'm going to need yours, I have a feeling you haven't done any parallel computational stuff at all or else you'd realise all the problems with this .