EyeToy...why didn't Sony use it?

[Shifty Geezer]

Answer to title: Too much movement required to get any kind of accuracy.

For those types of games, lots of movement is wanted. I don't see how waving a hand is too much movement. Plus in the original EyeToy, the movement was dependent on image contrast. To register a motion, you need to span the width of a hand in a wave, for example. Half that distance, and it was just seeing different parts of the same hand so not realizing it had moved. Wear a stripey sock on your hand and tiny movements become useable. For activating buttons I just jiggled my fingers a little in a sort of 'tickling of the button' way.

 

[wco81]

I've only seen demos of the Eyetoy.

But I agree if it was built in or bundled, developers might have done more.

For instance, lets say when you score a TD in Madden, you do a moonwalk and the player on the screen mimicks your action.

But again, they'd need some capture apparatus (assuming it would be much harder to capture and render it into a 3D animation in real time).

I'm not talking about the present capabilities of the EyeToy but some more complex code which may or may not be feasible on this hardware.

 

[Squeak]

For those types of games, lots of movement is wanted. I don't see how waving a hand is too much movement. Plus in the original EyeToy, the movement was dependent on image contrast. To register a motion, you need to span the width of a hand in a wave, for example. Half that distance, and it was just seeing different parts of the same hand so not realizing it had moved. Wear a stripey sock on your hand and tiny movements become useable. For activating buttons I just jiggled my fingers a little in a sort of 'tickling of the button' way.

If we are talking something to counter the wiimote with, it's worthless in the state is on PS2. The PS2 EyeToy basically is a gimmick that is only worthy of a few novelty games. There is no way to register 3d movement and you'll never be able to use minute movements to have mouse like controls. Plus all tactile feel is lost.
And if we are talking pack-in, you wouldn't be able to afford something significantly better than the camera in the org. EyeToy.

 

[patsu]

I think they are not done yet with PS3 EyeToy (software side). I also thought a bundled EyeToy would be an interesting (and good) move. The Talledega Night BR disc should be spared but that's just me

 

[Nesh]

The rub there is that EyeToy was marginalized into party games. If the technology was standard, developers would be more likely to include it in other ways, such as putting your own face onto avatars or adding motion detection into games, such as when the player leans, it affects some aspect of the game. Then you'd have found more people using it.

Furthermore, in PS3 the limits of EyeToy should, theoretically, be much reduced. EyeToy could be scatty without decent lighting and contrast. I've found it quite unusable even in good lighting at times, unless I wear gloves! It was a very simple motion detection method. The stuff that has been demoed for later camera tech is pretty staggering. The problem is, unless the technology is widely installed, devs aren't going to experiment. Even if the technology is there to read the players facial motions and affect the game experience, who will code for that if only a tiny percentage of the install base have the camera?

Well depends. The question is how much likely? The developers are willing to use a feature more when its available BUT when people are interested enough to use it as well.

More people will be willing to use it but how many would these be, when people are more likely to accept and prefer the normal way of playing they are accustomed to since the SIXAXIS is available with every console sold too?

There is a risk involved that it might not be welcomed as much as there is a chance it might. Probably it would be good to be included in the future but for now I doubt it would have been a good decision since the PS3 is already a very risky product as it is.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

More people will be willing to use it but how many would these be, when people are more likely to accept and prefer the normal way of playing they are accustomed to since the SIXAXIS is available with every console sold too?

Using EyeToy isn't limited to playing games through it. Things that have been noted as potential applications before are...

Log in by face recognition
Motion control of games
Video conferencing as standard
User interfaces
Photo-avatars
Augmented reality - Overlaying virtual characters into the realworld, or virtual makeovers, etc.

If EyeToy were standard, these features would likely become commonplace. With EyeToy as an accessory, most developers wont consider experimenting with it. That's where EyeToy suffered most - that and not being particularly advanced.

There is no way to register 3d movement and you'll never be able to use minute movements to have mouse like controls. Plus all tactile feel is lost.

EyeToy as a direct replacement for Wii functions I don't think was ever on the cards. EyeToy + props is. You could fit the innards of a sixaxis into a foam rod for motion detection + exact positioning via camera recognition. You'll also be surprised how much info can be obtained from a 2D image if you know the camera setup and have distinct points of observation of know size!

And if we are talking pack-in, you wouldn't be able to afford something significantly better than the camera in the org. EyeToy.

Well, we're not so much talking about a guessed spec as a given spec. The announced camera for PS3 is an HD camera. At the time it was suggested it'd be included, there was no standard HDD, for example. It would also be certain to be a better performer than the original, as cameras have moved on a way in a few years. Economics aside, a high-quality HD camera would be a great inclusion. I'll let Sony worry about whether it's cost effective or not!

Though IMO, if the peripheral is costly, it'll shoot itself in the foot as a peripheral. If you really want that interfacing method in your console, which would help in it's identity as unique, I think you have to accept that as a cost, in the same way a standard HDD or motion controls are included as standard at extra cost. If Console X is to be the one with a Minority Report interface (which TBH was a user interface nightmare that'd be a pig to actually use!), it'll have to come with the hardware to drive that. If the hardware become optional, you no longer have the console with the Minority Report interface.

 

[Bad_Boy]

A pack in would of been nice. But to what price would it have added we don't know. I think the next eyetoy has been finished hardware wise, it's just waiting on the first games to be finished to go with it. Last I heard, the eyetoy2 is rumored to come out around the time of the Euro launch.

It definately has a lot of potential, and thats not just counting games. I'm interested in where they go with it. The ps3 photo viewer already has face recognition and in portrait mode it tracks where the face in the picture is. If you couple that same algorithm with the eyetoy some very cool things could happen.

Video of it at work: http://youtube.com/watch?v=DDypErvJrD0

 

[wco81]

Well an HD camera needs to be 2 Megapixels at most right?

These days, cell phone cameras exceed that don't they? Optics might need to be better, especially to support zoom and autofocus. But 2 Mp CCDs have to be commodity parts by now.

What was the E3 demo with the ducks? Didn't he scoop some bucket and the Eyetoy detected the scooping motion and on the screen was rendered water or something?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

These days, cell phone cameras exceed that don't they? Optics might need to be better, especially to support zoom and autofocus. But 2 Mp CCDs have to be commodity parts by now.

It's not just CCD resolution but speed too. A camera that can do a 1.3 megapixel still can't necessarily manage 1.3 megapixel moving images at 30+ fps. Cheap webcams are 640x480. There are 1.3 megapixel webcams but they're pricier. A 1080p camera would be something special, and TBH I wouldn't put that past Sony. Much of their PS products thus far have been on the high-end scale.

What was the E3 demo with the ducks? Didn't he scoop some bucket and the Eyetoy detected the scooping motion and on the screen was rendered water or something?

Yes, that had image detection and orientation using coloured beakers.

 

[avaya]

Thank you all for the responses, some points I would wish to clarify though. The actual impact of EyeToy outside of Europe has been somewhat limited. I am not sure how aggressively it was pushed by SCEA and SCEI, but SCEE treats it like one of the main reasons to get a PS2 - in Europe it is effectively PES, GTA, GT and SingStar/EyeToy games. This why I stated I had a clear Europe centric bias in the OP.

To answer Nesh, my reasoning for including EyeToy was not based on appealing to the traditional user base. That user base ccould be satisfied by PS3 as is. XBD picked up on what I meant in part, it’s about generating interest in the non-gaming mainstream.

Shifty’s list of possible uses, is what I was getting it, we simply don’t know at this moment just how well it could have worked out but from personal experience the things that have wowed people who had no interest in games in general were augmented reality experiences. That Toshiba Cell digital mirror demo is a very cool gimmick, it appeals to nearly everyone on some level but not many would say it was the key selling point. It could have formed just one part of the multitude of reasons to get a PS3. It’s all about new experiences.

Nintendo is using what the traditional gamer would call “shallow†experiences to appeal to the non-gaming crowd. The strategy has been proved by DS and I think the Japanese market in particular has now completely transformed. EyeToy could provide different shallow experiences which could appeal to the same market.

wco81, I can not disagree with your question of whether Wii is simply selling on price point and novelty alone. It’s hard to argue either way and who knows it might be? But similar things were said of DS, today a new market has been opened.

Just how effectively the technology behind EyeToy could have been exploited is a good question. However I think from seeing just some of the tiny spectrum of possible uses from the E3 ducks demo, digital mirror and Minority Report style interaction on top of predictable uses such as avatar’s and SingStar the EyeToy certainly offers a lot of potential with PS3.

From the cost perspective a 2MP camera and an extra controller peripheral with accelerometers, battery and USB connection for recharging (they could still use Sixaxis for this, but I’m talking about another component entirely…yes it sounds like a Wiimote copy) - how much would that have cost? ~$15-20 max?

 

[patsu]

Yes, that's why I said PS3 EyeToy software is not done yet. (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=900527&postcount=24).

For this gen, EyeToy will need more OS/software differentiation to impress. I think we will see some of the cool things people mentioned in this thread later in PS3's lifecycle.

 

[Bad_Boy]

For this gen, EyeToy will need more OS/software differentiation to impress. I think we will see some of the cool things people mentioned in this thread later in PS3's lifecycle.

I agree with that. Games will be nice, but I dont think they will be enough to get more people impressed and involved. Definately needs eyetoy interaction with the OS. In which ways, I'm not sure. But it does make you think.

Kinda reminds me of this old mock video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L17O43X39cg

 

[patsu]

Well yeah... that would be over-the-top.

Did Sony say we can use PS2 EyeToy on PS3 ? Just wondering...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For this gen, EyeToy will need more OS/software differentiation to impress. I think we will see some of the cool things people mentioned in this thread later in PS3's lifecycle.

Well, like the OS is half-baked at the moment, I think it'd have been better to include the hardware as standard and wait for the software, rather than wait on the software and end up with an optional, underused peripheral

As for price, I don't think a high-res camera is particularly cheap. I'd expect maybe double $15-20 given retail prices of HD webcams that I've found. Single shot CCDs are far cheaper than motion CCDs. You can get 3 megapixel still cameras for 8 box tops from Kellog's cereals these days, whereas HD webcams are only just appearing and even then, are 30 fps at the lower end of high-res. Sony may have an advantage in this field from their camera products, but I doubt it'll be cheap. It could be that their target spec was beyond really producable en masse for launch (kinda like BluRay ).

 

[Bad_Boy]

Well yeah... that would be over-the-top.

Did Sony say we can use PS2 EyeToy on PS3 ? Just wondering...

Yeah you can. I'm really interested in what the new Eyetoy will offer over the old one.

 

[Nesh]

Using EyeToy isn't limited to playing games through it. Things that have been noted as potential applications before are...

Log in by face recognition
Motion control of games
Video conferencing as standard
User interfaces
Photo-avatars
Augmented reality - Overlaying virtual characters into the realworld, or virtual makeovers, etc.

If EyeToy were standard, these features would likely become commonplace. With EyeToy as an accessory, most developers wont consider experimenting with it. That's where EyeToy suffered most - that and not being particularly advanced.

I agree from that aspect. But still regarding how well it would have done in gaming its still unsure. So saying "Eye Toy should have been included instead of the SIXAXIS motion sensing" is a very hasty conclusion. SIXAXIS is more guaranteed for gaming. Under these functions Eye Toy and SIXAXIS have different functions and uses to prefer the inclusion of one over the other

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree, and I never said instead of SIXAXIS. I'd say both are warranted to give PS3 a unique identity with unique features, and differentiate it from the competition.

 

[Crossbar]

As for price, I don't think a high-res camera is particularly cheap. I'd expect maybe double $15-20 given retail prices of HD webcams that I've found. Single shot CCDs are far cheaper than motion CCDs. You can get 3 megapixel still cameras for 8 box tops from Kellog's cereals these days, whereas HD webcams are only just appearing and even then, are 30 fps at the lower end of high-res. Sony may have an advantage in this field from their camera products, but I doubt it'll be cheap. It could be that their target spec was beyond really producable en masse for launch (kinda like BluRay ).

I expect the HD cam to come bundled with a game, maybe Eyedentify, just the way the original eyetoy was bundled and it will cost slightly more than an ordinary game. That way Sony can get money covering the hardware costs and hopefully reach a good market penetration at the same time.

I agree that it would have been nice if it came bundled out of the box, but introducing the camera early in PS3 life cycle compared to the PS2 Eyetoy may help to get more games supporting it.

I suspect that one reason it is not bundled is because of the cost. Even though the PS3 is more expensive than the 360 today, I expect the 20 GB PS3 will be priced similar to the 20 GB 360 within a year or two and at that time every penny will count if there is a price war.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I expect the HD cam to come bundled with a game, maybe Eyedentify, just the way the original eyetoy was bundled and it will cost slightly more than an ordinary game. That way Sony can get money covering the hardware costs and hopefully reach a good market penetration at the same time.

More likely it'll come with Eye of Judgement launches soon, supposedly. If the camera isn't out by then, that games not going to get very far!

I agree that it would have been nice if it came bundled out of the box, but introducing the camera early in PS3 life cycle compared to the PS2 Eyetoy may help to get more games supporting it.

If there's games that attract all-comers, you may be right. EyeToy actually came halfway through PS2's life, and yet has only sold to about 5% of PS2 from the latest figures I heard. I think the slow adoption of EyeToy features limited the device to people who wanted the Play games. If the HDIP camera is only used for EOJ and Identify, only people interested in those games will get it, marginalizing uptake. If Sony want widespread adoption, they'll need to get camera support into a lot of early titles and the OS. Otherwise it'll be like steering wheels - only bought by the few who care for a different control scheme or particular games. If it was standard, everyone would have one!

I suspect that one reason it is not bundled is because of the cost.

Cost probably is the reason. Looking around, HD cameras are not cheap. MS released a 1.3 megapixel webcam that manages 4 fps at that res, and I think 15 fps at 800x600. HP have an HD webcam that manages 30 fps at 800x600. Sony were first with consumer level HD camcorders and have a lot of experience there...but the tech still isn't cheap. I don't know how much of that is optics and how much is other components though. Just the CCD with autofocus is all that's needed, but I've no idea how to estimate a price for that.

 

[Nick Laslett]

The Eyetoy installed base in the UK is huge, more than 2 million.

I guess the it might be a similar story across Europe.

Sony actually released Eyetoy Sports this Christmas, sort of like a direct challenge to Wii sports. Eyetoy Play 3 already had a number of sports games like Bowling and Volleyball, which I assume are as entertaining as the Wii equivalents.

I think Sony already have a strong grip on the casual party crowd with Eyetoy, Singstar, Buzz and Dancemat games.

Despite the Wii's early sellout, in the UK it still has a long way to go before it represents any serious threat to the role the PS2 has for the casual crowd.

There is no reason why Sony couldn't release a version of the Sixaxis for the PS2.

I thought they were going to link up the Sixaxis with the Eyetoy HD and use the LEDs on the back of the sixaxis to allow the Eyetoy to place the sixaxis in 3D space. There was a thread about this.

Edge had a report on the Gametek guys who have developed a microwave based motion sensing tech, this would be available for PC, PS2/3 and Xbox360. If motion sensing has commercial legs, I don't see why everybody won't get in on the act. This is Wii's achilles heel, it's won't be unique in the market for very long, if it is a success.