EyeToy...why didn't Sony use it?

[avaya]

Most of the PS3 issues have been done to death. From my point of view, Europe centric so I maybe a little biased, I think the fact they decided to parrot Nintendo with the motion sensing in Sixaxis instead of using their own existing technology to push the control paradigm of PS3 was incredibly short-sighted. Very unlike SCEI and Kutaragi especially.

What should they have used you ask? EyeToy. Standard EyeToy in every PS3, this opens up so many ridiculous gaming and quirky non-gaming possibilities for PS3 that would have been realised with such high fidelity. Digital Kagami (Toshiba Mirror demo…), Wii Sports like equivalents…quite frankly the possibilities are huge with EyeToy and PS3.

Nintendo is selling, from the traditional gamers point of view, “shallow” casual experiences like the DS “Touch! Generations” series which will soon be doubled up with their Wii successors. If you can manage to sell consoles with such trivial software – made great only by their unique interactive features (though I still cannot fathom the appeal of Animal Crossing!) the lack of standard EyeToy becomes even more glaring from the Sony perspective.

Stuff like Wii Sports will not get the pulses of the traditional gamer going but they, as Nintendo has proved with astounding success, will capture the non-gamer and ignite the desire in retired gamers. Standard EyeToy for PS3 would appeal to this market on top of all the Blu-Ray and Digital Carpe Diem hoopla or whatever Sony marketing calls it nowadays.

Price is still a sticking point but EyeToy would have given PS3 something unique and tangible to the consumer (even though an extra cost of $10-20 per unit would have been added). Live differentiates 360. Wiimote the Wii. PS3 only has Blu-Ray right now and for most people this is NOT a good enough advantage especially during a format war. Brand isn't going to magic up the price difference to justify the premium either. FWIW I am a HD nut and Blu-Ray sold me but I am not representative of the market.

I still have a vague recollection of a certain report about a demo that Richard Marks showcased at some convention, essentially it was talking about Minority Report style interactivity using camera’s. This could have and should have been PS3’s unique selling point along with Blu-Ray – not rumble-less Sixaxis.

Most people are wowed by some of the simplest concepts. The best ideas are usually the simplest ones. I still remember the day at a friend’s house during my undergrad. when he first got EyeToy play for his PS2....the girls there were actually playing, they were hogging the thing, it was like we were all 8 years old again, when all kids played games. This same thing happened with SingStar. The same thing is happening with Wii. This is all anecdotal so take it in that context but I do believe a trend is emergent.

Eye of Judgement is the only next-gen EyeToy game we’ve currently seen and that has got people interested, but they won’t bite because it is just one game for an add-on. Imagine every developer having the freedom to use EyeToy with the knowledge that it is standard, new concepts would flourish. I think Sony missed the boat on this one, they missed the boat on it by a long way.

 

[sir doris]

--Whoops--

 

[Carl B]

I actually don't think SIXAXIS was a straight Nintendo rip-off... I really do think on some level there must've been concurrent development. That said, whether I'm right or wrong I agree that it ends up seeming that way, especially the way in which it was announced.

EyeToy itself is incredible, and certainly I think one of the best/most innovative aspects of the PS2. I think Wii is awesome and a great time, but no one I know that has played with EyeToy has been 'blown away' by its control mechanics. And therein lies part of the problem for Sony; the number of people that have played it is simply too few. They should have had more EyeToy tie-ins throughout their first-party library since the day it launched, in order to raise awareness. People, even here, know what it is... but without having used it one just doesn't understand the level of immersion and 'fun.' Hell I don't work out as much as I should these days, but with a group of people and the EyeToy... I mean that'll leave you sore in the morning.

I agree that an EyeToy included in every PS3 would have been the right direction to swing things. A bunch of downloadable titles utilizing such.... awesome.

Anyway well it's water under the bridge. At least we know they're working on a bigger, better version, and as a huge fan of this device I'm excited to see what they turn out for it and what non-gaming functions they tie in as well.

 

[Skrying]

SIXAXIS is completely ripoff from Nintendo. So clearly so too, I mean the company had no clue what they wanted to do with the controller in the first place. I mean, we all can fully recall the boomerang or whatever that monster was going by when they first showed it. It wasn't until the consumer completely rejected that and Nintendo showed their controller that there was a moment of connecting the dots.

 

[Graham]

From a cost perspective, the motion sensing wins out.
Sensing is apparently ~$1 per axis. This doesn't require any additional expenses a camera requires, like a shell, cable, lens, base, etc. Your average usb2 megapixel webcam is ~$8 from china. Obviously this will be less for sony, but there are lots of other hidden costs.

Further, I'd question how reliable it is. While I haven't actually used it - I was given a demo of the actual minority report glove system by the guy who owned the company. It's not what you'd expect. It's accurate, yes, but the hardest part is converting that into a reliable user input. It ends up being quite hard to use, as you pretty much have to rely on large, sweeping gestures, with little accuracy. Try pointing your finger at a fixed spot for 3 seconds It's actually hard!
Thats not even mentioning the price of the system. It had 12 (if memory servers) 4mp 200+fps greyscale IR cameras. Each of which was serious $$. The backend system doing the tracking was some very serious kit as well.

So what I'm saying is you probably won't go that much deeper than what the PS2 EyeToy already does. Eye of judgement is AR, which is *very* dependant on the lighting and environment. It works great in a lab, but moving it to the home is where it really falls over. It also requires significant additional 'hardware' in the form of the cards/markers that get tracked. These add a lot more cost than an algorithm

 

[Carl B]

SIXAXIS is completely ripoff from Nintendo. So clearly so too, I mean the company had no clue what they wanted to do with the controller in the first place. I mean, we all can fully recall the boomerang or whatever that monster was going by when they first showed it. It wasn't until the consumer completely rejected that and Nintendo showed their controller that there was a moment of connecting the dots.

What about the design before having been a boomerang... implies to you that it was without motion sensitivty in mind? Frankly the boomerang looks like it would have been an even better platform for it, and honestly I wish they went with that controller design in the first place.

The only thing I'll cede outright is that the consumer rejected the boomerang design. But whether it was Nintendo or was not Nintendo that put motion sensing into the PS3 controller, remember that Sony has a patent for such from way back, so it's been in their minds on one level or another. Another thing to consider is that they've known for quite awhile that they were facing a possible end-game on the rumble front.

@Graham: Forget all of that... try the EyeToy out and have the time of your life.

 

[Skrying]

The shape means little. Its not like that style of controller would have lend itself any better beyond the impression of looking like that's what it was for. Sony tends to not hide things like that, they're much more in yourself and much more of a marketing company. I just simply believe Sony has no clue in controller design (I'm, I guess one of the few who thinks the dualshock design from the start is/was horrible) and the boomerang was proof of that, they've always been playing catchup with features on that front.

 

[Carl B]

Well, we'll agree to disagree. Everyone says that Sony is a marketing company, but I don't see it; do you? That was a long time ago. They could certainly stand to be again, but their marketing has fallen by the waysaide in terms of its efficacy. Their Bravia and Cell commercials are the first in a long long time that I've felt have any 'oomph' behind them. As for hiding things (or rather not), I'd say exactly the opposite when it comes to SCEI. Sony does indeed tend to hide things like that, and that's what leads to the sort of confusion as exactly what degree they did copy Nintendo on. If you follow Sony, you know it's always... 'and wait until next time when we reveal to you the *next* big surprise!

 

[Graham]

@Graham: Forget all of that... try the EyeToy out and have the time of your life.

Yes but what I was sortof trying to say was that it wouldn't be an obvious generational leap between the systems. I'd also say it would probably have application in far fewer mainstream games than a motion sensitive controller.

 

[Carl B]

Yes but what I was sortof trying to say was that it wouldn't be an obvious generational leap between the systems. I'd also say it would probably have application in far fewer mainstream games than a motion sensitive controller.

I don't disagree... but seriously, check it out if you get the chance. There's an appeal to the EyeToy that is greatly outsized proportional to it's technological achievement; Avaya created this thread for a very sensible reason.

 

[Acert93]

On the Wii and motion sensing, everyone had a general idea what they were doing like a year before E3 2005 because Nintendo had licensed technology from a small company that makes gyros and accelerometers. Obviously no one knew exactly how Nintendo was going to impliment it, but the options are limited to a degree and getting the motion sensing tech, at like ~$6USD, was a nice little catch either way. i.e. Good gamble for Sony who were losing rumble anyhow. IMO they really would have been in a rock and hard place if MS had rumble and Nintendo had motion sensing and Sony didn't have either and nothing to replace them. Integrated eyetoy is a nice idea though... maybe some basic head tracking ::shrugs:: The problem is keeping core accessibility to proven games and yet offering new oppurtunities for completely new game designs as well as opening the door for more interaction in traditional designs of devs so choose so. Hard line to walk.

 

[Graham]

Well overall I'm not saying I disagree..

It also surprises me somewhat that a new eyetoy didn't launch with the system - and further more, the camera attachment for the PSP is apparently far less than ideal (Although that doesn't surprise me at all - megapixels are cheap, lenses are not).
There is a risk that the live vision will steal it's thunder somewhat. Sure, totemball was a bit of a flop, yet it seems every other person in Vegas has their face mapped... And from memory MS do have licenses for some form of guesture tracking. Can't remember the details though

I've used the original, and second generation eyetoys for some work related stuff. They are adequate cameras, but I don't see too much improvement in any possible camera for the PS3.

 

[wco81]

The Wii system is only tracking acceleration in a lot of games. So you don't even have to try to mimick the proper form to swing a tennis racket or baseball bat or pitch.

If Sony complemented EyeToy with accelerometer and was able to render the form of the user, it would be a far more interesting thing for serious gamers. It might not as be appealing to casual gamers who are drawn to the Wii, which is forgiving since it's not tracking the position of the user's limbs relative to their bodies.

Or if they can't represent exact motion and form in real time, then have the ability to "train" it to recognize idiosyncratic form. Maybe they give you some reflective balls and captures and animates your form, saves it to HDD and then renders it if you do that form in the game.

Again, this might not appeal to the casuals. But we don't know that the appeal of the Wii right now goes beyond the price and novelty.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I can only answer the OP with a 'beats me, but it was a very stupid move.' I was hoping for the HD eyeToy as standard. That would have enabled lots in games, and having it as standard unlike eyeToy on PS2 would mean all devs would have the interest in developing for it. The potential is massive in concert with conventional controllers, such as the supposed monitoring of the player that was tooted when the HDIP camera was being talked about. It's a great party-game driver (energetic games that get non gamers involved before Wii ever got on the scene...Nintendo were just copying Sony!), offers video conferencing and mapping faces to characters, can be used with props, and is generally a very cool system if you have enough CPU power to do clever things with it like background removal.

I can only say that lack of EyeToy follows a trend of Sony to drop improvements/peripherals for their systems. The tilt controller on PSP would have been awesome, and according to Archer MacClean was actually finished, but it never saw the light of day. Neither do we have GPS. And where's the PSP camera? And what happened to PS2's HDD? Sony have great ideas and then fumble/drop them. I dare say they have constantly moving targets and are changing their mind. One minute they're thinking GPS on PSP would be great, and the next they think of HDIP camera for PS3 and forget all about the GPS!

EyeToy as standard was anticipated, and a huge loss IMO. One of those simple ideas that'd increase potential of your box a great deal, encouraging new ideas, that just faded away. It'll appear as a second rate, small adoption peripheral with few games targetting it in any way.

 

[Nesh]

The question is...how many would have been interested on using the eye toy?

Judging from the interest eye toy games got, I dont think people would have cared much. Actually most of them would have found another excuse to complain that Sony put a useless gadget in it raising the cost as it has happened already

 

[slider]

I won't talk about motion sensing because that's not what the OP intended (I hope!); plus it's been done to death already.

I'm ignoring eyetoy integration into games. But if we had a bundled eyetoy I'd have been quite pleased with integration simply into OS functions. Gimmicky I know but ignoring other things it would've been cool!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The question is...how many would have been interested on using the eye toy?

Judging from the interest eye toy games got...

The rub there is that EyeToy was marginalized into party games. If the technology was standard, developers would be more likely to include it in other ways, such as putting your own face onto avatars or adding motion detection into games, such as when the player leans, it affects some aspect of the game. Then you'd have found more people using it.

Furthermore, in PS3 the limits of EyeToy should, theoretically, be much reduced. EyeToy could be scatty without decent lighting and contrast. I've found it quite unusable even in good lighting at times, unless I wear gloves! It was a very simple motion detection method. The stuff that has been demoed for later camera tech is pretty staggering. The problem is, unless the technology is widely installed, devs aren't going to experiment. Even if the technology is there to read the players facial motions and affect the game experience, who will code for that if only a tiny percentage of the install base have the camera?

 

[Squeak]

Answer to title: Too much movement required to get any kind of accuracy.

 

[Subtlesnake]

I actually don't think SIXAXIS was a straight Nintendo rip-off... I really do think on some level there must've been concurrent development.

Why weren't devs told about it earlier then?

 

[Carl B]

Why weren't devs told about it earlier then?

Well, devs themselves are unclear as to the 'prelim' research that Sony put into SIXAXIS. Some of them had actually been requesting such a feature from Sony. I mean, I certainly don't know the full deal, it's just that given Kutaragi's own unveiling of the feature, his level of pride, and the secrecy surrounding it... I just wouldn't be surprised if Sony had a concurrent development track in that regard.

That said, I of course would not be surprised if they actually did just get the idea from Nintendo. It just seems to be one of those Sony-isms we may never have fully clarified (for better or worse).

@wco81: See, have you played EyeToy though? I think people would be surprised as to it's game implementation. I agree, it's appeal is mainly party games. But then again... IMO so is Wii's. And that's not a knock against Wii mind you (I'm a big party gamer), it's just that I think if the PS3 - or even the PS2 at one point - had EyeToy included standard with their latest multi-game ROM, it may have succeeded in generating some of the 'mainstream positive' press, and thus interest, among parents that Nintendo has managed this season.