overclocked
Veteran
I voted with heart on Denmark, still sever depressed after the loss we hade against Holland.. 
Euro 2004
- Thread starter alien-)!(-sam
- Start date
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
England will never win another trophy until we realise that to be the best takes a lot of effort. Ever since 1966 we seem to have had the attitude that we (specifically our players) can just turn up and chances are that we'll win.
A lot of nonsense is talked about the English Premiership being the best league in Europe. This is clearly crap, but people seem to believe their own propaganda (even if it isn't crap it's certainly not improving the quality of the players in our national team).
amk said:
England will never win another trophy until we realise that to be the best takes a lot of effort. Ever since 1966 we seem to have had the attitude that we (specifically our players) can just turn up and chances are that we'll win.
A lot of nonsense is talked about the English Premiership being the best league in Europe. This is clearly crap, but people seem to believe their own propaganda (even if it isn't crap it's certainly not improving the quality of the players in our national team).
jose.moura
Newcomer
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
You know ... i had something else ready to post when the news channel just mentioned that the UEFA Referees' Committee made a press where it's president, Volker Roth, address the unnaceptable manner in wich the british press critized the ref.
Afterwards, the VP, Kenneth Ridden showed video footage of that play and stated that Urs Meier took the correct decision.
http://sic.sapo.pt/index.php?article=2347&visual=3&area_id=4
If a web translation turns out to be hard to read, let me know and i'll post a translation.
You will never win a major trophy untill you have much more creative players that know what to do when they have the ball at their feet. Technically, with a couple of exceptions, you are equivalent to players that play in our regional leagues. You have a strong team, dispute every ball like it was the last play and shoot on sight. Those are great attributes but they can only take you so far.
Heck, it's just like Championship Manager, british players are overrated beyond belief.
You know ... i had something else ready to post when the news channel just mentioned that the UEFA Referees' Committee made a press where it's president, Volker Roth, address the unnaceptable manner in wich the british press critized the ref.
Afterwards, the VP, Kenneth Ridden showed video footage of that play and stated that Urs Meier took the correct decision.
http://sic.sapo.pt/index.php?article=2347&visual=3&area_id=4
If a web translation turns out to be hard to read, let me know and i'll post a translation.
amk said:
You will never win a major trophy untill you have much more creative players that know what to do when they have the ball at their feet. Technically, with a couple of exceptions, you are equivalent to players that play in our regional leagues. You have a strong team, dispute every ball like it was the last play and shoot on sight. Those are great attributes but they can only take you so far.
Heck, it's just like Championship Manager, british players are overrated beyond belief.
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
Why don't you think that the England players are improving? IMHO the England squad now is better than it has been since at least Italia '90, they are still young (most of them), and there are exciting young players in the wings (e.g. Defoe).
I agree up to a point. IMHO the players usually put effort into big games against major opponents. It's just against the likes of Macedonia at home when they can't really be bothered.nutball said:
I think it may be significant that the three best young players at Euro 2004 - Rooney, Ronaldo, Robben - will all be playing in the Premiership next season. The best players in the world have always played in either Italy or Spain - not England. Perhaps this is changing.nutball said:
Why don't you think that the England players are improving? IMHO the England squad now is better than it has been since at least Italia '90, they are still young (most of them), and there are exciting young players in the wings (e.g. Defoe).
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
I'd like to see this video footage.
The only players with the flair that would interest a Portugese in the England squad are Rooney and Joe Cole (who travelled to Portugal and to Japan, but played in neither tournament). This is a concern I admit: only these two could produce a piece of individual brilliance to unlock a defence.
However, Germany has won a lot with few such individual talents, albeit with less of a tendency to give the ball away.
Incidentally, I'd far rather England played a German-style 3-5-2 formation (as they did under Hoddle), maybe even with a sweeper.
England's midfield didn't really give a terribly could account of themselves. They are capable of passing through a defence, but Beckham was unfit (and IMHO wasted when stuck out wide), Scholes out of position, Gerrard was clearly very tired against Portugal, , Lampard has played very few internationals, and the Lampard/ Gerrard partnership IIRC only played once before the tournament (6-1 win versus Iceland). Gerrard and Lampard were arguably the best central midfielders in the Premiership last season, ahead of Vieira and Makelele of France.
BTW, it's been observed that the differing strengths and weaknesses of England and Portugal are a result of the playground games the kids play. Portugese kids play keep ball, English kids go for goal. Portugal has great flair players, England has strikers, central defenders and (bad patch now...) goalkeepers.
BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/euro_2004/3846643.stmjose.moura said:
I'd like to see this video footage.
jose.moura said:
The only players with the flair that would interest a Portugese in the England squad are Rooney and Joe Cole (who travelled to Portugal and to Japan, but played in neither tournament). This is a concern I admit: only these two could produce a piece of individual brilliance to unlock a defence.
However, Germany has won a lot with few such individual talents, albeit with less of a tendency to give the ball away.
Incidentally, I'd far rather England played a German-style 3-5-2 formation (as they did under Hoddle), maybe even with a sweeper.
England's midfield didn't really give a terribly could account of themselves. They are capable of passing through a defence, but Beckham was unfit (and IMHO wasted when stuck out wide), Scholes out of position, Gerrard was clearly very tired against Portugal, , Lampard has played very few internationals, and the Lampard/ Gerrard partnership IIRC only played once before the tournament (6-1 win versus Iceland). Gerrard and Lampard were arguably the best central midfielders in the Premiership last season, ahead of Vieira and Makelele of France.
BTW, it's been observed that the differing strengths and weaknesses of England and Portugal are a result of the playground games the kids play. Portugese kids play keep ball, English kids go for goal. Portugal has great flair players, England has strikers, central defenders and (bad patch now...) goalkeepers.
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
Ok, the european championship is governed by the UEFA, who reference the IFAB's laws of the game. This documents acknowledge the existance of teh goal area right in the first few pages. Now, the problem is that neither the UEFA nor the FIFA nor the IFAB seem to have any detailed regulations online (I'm pretty sure that even in the premier league there are more rules and regulations to follow than these few...).
So, as I knew that I've already seen the rule there, I can for now only give you this link on the official site of the Deutsche Fußball Bund:
http://www.dfb.de/dfb-info/regeln/fussballregeln/regel/regel12.html
Anweisungen des DFB -> 25
As I said, two UEFA approved german referees and several other "experts" confirmed on TV here that this rule is in place for the EURO too.
amk said:
Ok, the european championship is governed by the UEFA, who reference the IFAB's laws of the game. This documents acknowledge the existance of teh goal area right in the first few pages. Now, the problem is that neither the UEFA nor the FIFA nor the IFAB seem to have any detailed regulations online (I'm pretty sure that even in the premier league there are more rules and regulations to follow than these few...).
So, as I knew that I've already seen the rule there, I can for now only give you this link on the official site of the Deutsche Fußball Bund:
http://www.dfb.de/dfb-info/regeln/fussballregeln/regel/regel12.html
Anweisungen des DFB -> 25
As I said, two UEFA approved german referees and several other "experts" confirmed on TV here that this rule is in place for the EURO too.
jose.moura
Newcomer
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
Well, now that the dissallowed goal issue has been cleared by UEFA ...
Hmm, well that depends on the sort of players the national coach will have to chose from. I'm a strong believer that a coach must find a tactical solution with the players he has at his disposal.
With the exception of Chelsea where there seems to be money to buy any player to fit in the tactical model .
I am not surprised. Our piss poor finishing has plagued us for many years. And not only on the national team. Portuguese seem to think "hmm, still doesnt look right ... " and the English "Good enough, here goes !!"
And there are other differences that English players have that i would like to see in Portuguese players: the determination, sense of team and honesty. There hasn't been much diving but if you saw a league game you would be surprised ...
And guess what, the press instead of the critisizing the players that do it say that they were "smart" , "showed experience" , etc etc ...
Shamefull.
Well, now that the dissallowed goal issue has been cleared by UEFA ...
amk said:
Hmm, well that depends on the sort of players the national coach will have to chose from. I'm a strong believer that a coach must find a tactical solution with the players he has at his disposal.
With the exception of Chelsea where there seems to be money to buy any player to fit in the tactical model
.amk said:
I am not surprised. Our piss poor finishing has plagued us for many years. And not only on the national team. Portuguese seem to think "hmm, still doesnt look right ... " and the English "Good enough, here goes !!"
And there are other differences that English players have that i would like to see in Portuguese players: the determination, sense of team and honesty. There hasn't been much diving but if you saw a league game you would be surprised ...
And guess what, the press instead of the critisizing the players that do it say that they were "smart" , "showed experience" , etc etc ...
Shamefull.
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
All England's good midfielders are best played centrally, and none of them are any good on the left. There are, however, many good midfielders. There are also many good central defenders. 3-5-2 allows 3 central midfielders, 3 central defenders, and solves England's long standing left side problem. Ashley Cole and Owen Hargreaves are ideal wing backs. Rio Ferdinand (suspended) is a born sweeper, and I think Ledley King could do well there too.
Suggested team:
GK: Robinson
Defenders: Ferdinand, Campbell, Terry
Wing backs: A Cole, Hargreaves
Midfielders: Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham
Forwards: Rooney, Owen
Reserves:
Defenders: King, Woodgate, G Neville (played in this role under Venables at Euro 96)
Wing backs: Bridge (left), G Neville, maybe young Glen Johnson (right)
Midfielders: Scholes, Butt, Parker, J Cole, Jenas, Dyer
Forwards: J Cole, Heskey, Smith, Dyer (withdrawn), Defoe, Vassell (forward)
Everyone is in their ideal role AFAICS Cover everywhere, except a bit flaky with right wing back. Only problem is that most don't play this way for their clubs :?
Precisely why I want to see 3-5-2jose.moura said:
All England's good midfielders are best played centrally, and none of them are any good on the left. There are, however, many good midfielders. There are also many good central defenders. 3-5-2 allows 3 central midfielders, 3 central defenders, and solves England's long standing left side problem. Ashley Cole and Owen Hargreaves are ideal wing backs. Rio Ferdinand (suspended) is a born sweeper, and I think Ledley King could do well there too.
Suggested team:
GK: Robinson
Defenders: Ferdinand, Campbell, Terry
Wing backs: A Cole, Hargreaves
Midfielders: Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham
Forwards: Rooney, Owen
Reserves:
Defenders: King, Woodgate, G Neville (played in this role under Venables at Euro 96)
Wing backs: Bridge (left), G Neville, maybe young Glen Johnson (right)
Midfielders: Scholes, Butt, Parker, J Cole, Jenas, Dyer
Forwards: J Cole, Heskey, Smith, Dyer (withdrawn), Defoe, Vassell (forward)
Everyone is in their ideal role AFAICS
Cover everywhere, except a bit flaky with right wing back. Only problem is that most don't play this way for their clubs :?jose.moura
Newcomer
Re: OT: Laws of the Game
Hmmm, i dont think that model would work for England IMO.
1)In that type of formation both wingers must be fast and i don't recall seeing Hargreaves doing much running. Though i could be wrong here.
2) The 2 midfielders must cover and support they respective wingers, and like you mentioned England would be flaky on the right because of Beckam.
3) It would require that at least 2 of the 3 inner midfielders, ideally also the wingers, would have the skills to create opportunities for the forward guys. Gerrard and Lampard might do it but i doubt the reserve midfielders you mentioned have the necessary skill to get the job done. All that because you have to account for injuries, suspensions and poor form.
4) I don't consider Owen a striker. I find that his abilities are far more useful when coming from behind exploring his speed. I look at him as a forward. Rooney has both the speed and technical ability to wreak havoc on the adversary defences.
6) G. Neville is too slow for that role. An excellent player for this role would be our player Miguel. Started his carreer as a AMR and for the last couple of seasons was adapted to DR. But he can do all of that right side though he is rather clumsy at times! Another one is P.Ferreira, one of Mourinho recomendations for Chealsea.
5) Heskey is crap
Wich reminds me, i have a complete blank on a period of english football. When i stopped watching it, R.Fowler was the next best thing and when i started to follow english football again, he was gone. The guy scored a lot of goals. What happened ?
amk said:Precisely why I want to see 3-5-2jose.moura said:
All England's good midfielders are best played centrally, and none of them are any good on the left. There are, however, many good midfielders. There are also many good central defenders. 3-5-2 allows 3 central midfielders, 3 central defenders, and solves England's long standing left side problem. Ashley Cole and Owen Hargreaves are ideal wing backs. Rio Ferdinand (suspended) is a born sweeper, and I think Ledley King could do well there too.
Suggested team:
GK: Robinson
Defenders: Ferdinand, Campbell, Terry
Wing backs: A Cole, Hargreaves
Midfielders: Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham
Forwards: Rooney, Owen
Reserves:
Defenders: King, Woodgate, G Neville (played in this role under Venables at Euro 96)
Wing backs: Bridge (left), G Neville, maybe young Glen Johnson (right)
Midfielders: Scholes, Butt, Parker, J Cole, Jenas, Dyer
Forwards: J Cole, Heskey, Smith, Dyer (withdrawn), Defoe, Vassell (forward)
Everyone is in their ideal role AFAICS
Hmmm, i dont think that model would work for England IMO.
1)In that type of formation both wingers must be fast and i don't recall seeing Hargreaves doing much running. Though i could be wrong here.
2) The 2 midfielders must cover and support they respective wingers, and like you mentioned England would be flaky on the right because of Beckam.
3) It would require that at least 2 of the 3 inner midfielders, ideally also the wingers, would have the skills to create opportunities for the forward guys. Gerrard and Lampard might do it but i doubt the reserve midfielders you mentioned have the necessary skill to get the job done. All that because you have to account for injuries, suspensions and poor form.
4) I don't consider Owen a striker. I find that his abilities are far more useful when coming from behind exploring his speed. I look at him as a forward. Rooney has both the speed and technical ability to wreak havoc on the adversary defences.
6) G. Neville is too slow for that role. An excellent player for this role would be our player Miguel. Started his carreer as a AMR and for the last couple of seasons was adapted to DR. But he can do all of that right side though he is rather clumsy at times! Another one is P.Ferreira, one of Mourinho recomendations for Chealsea.
5) Heskey is crap
Wich reminds me, i have a complete blank on a period of english football. When i stopped watching it, R.Fowler was the next best thing and when i started to follow english football again, he was gone. The guy scored a lot of goals. What happened ?
OT: England
He has also played in that role regularly for Bayern Munich (dunno if he still does).
We don't want to be too much like boring Germany, do we? Actually, one of the few things Becks did well this tourny was help Gary Neville defend. Gerrard and Lampard can defend too, although it's not their main strength.
During Euro 96, Terry Venables' England played a very attack minded 3-5-2. One central defender, full backs either side (Pearce and G Neville), and two attacking wingers (McManaman, Anderton). IIRC only one of the inner three midfielders were defence minded (Ince). Of course, he had the luxury of home advantage.
Or, put it this way: Eriksson's team has four good defenders. Mine has five. I'm not too worried about cover
Like I said, Joe Cole has the skills to unlock defences, Scholes has the tactical sense and the passing ability to play through defences. Dyer is fast, and very much an attacker.
In any case, surely you'd need the same number of creative players whichever formation you played?
I expect Heskey will be replaced by Alan Smith soon as understudy to Rooney.
Hargreaves is very quick, and naturally fit. He can run, I can assure youjose.moura said:
He has also played in that role regularly for Bayern Munich (dunno if he still does).Nah, let one of the back three coverjose.moura said:
We don't want to be too much like boring Germany, do we? Actually, one of the few things Becks did well this tourny was help Gary Neville defend. Gerrard and Lampard can defend too, although it's not their main strength.During Euro 96, Terry Venables' England played a very attack minded 3-5-2. One central defender, full backs either side (Pearce and G Neville), and two attacking wingers (McManaman, Anderton). IIRC only one of the inner three midfielders were defence minded (Ince). Of course, he had the luxury of home advantage.
Or, put it this way: Eriksson's team has four good defenders. Mine has five. I'm not too worried about cover
You're not a Becks fan, are you?jose.moura said:
Like I said, Joe Cole has the skills to unlock defences, Scholes has the tactical sense and the passing ability to play through defences. Dyer is fast, and very much an attacker.
In any case, surely you'd need the same number of creative players whichever formation you played?
Neville is not ideal, but there aren't a lot of good English right backs at the moment. Johnson is quick and athletic, has good technique, and will be a regular international in time, but he is very young (nearly 20) and inexperienced. He has one England cap already.jose.moura said:
jose.moura said:5) Heskey is crap
I expect Heskey will be replaced by Alan Smith soon as understudy to Rooney.Err... he was, still is, a natural goalscorer with his left foot, but I don't think there's a lot else to his game. Not even a particularly good header of the ball. A Liverpool fan will give you a better story - I support a lower league club, and don't avidly watch the Premiership.jose.moura said:
The problem with English football as I see it compared to the more typical continental style is not that our passing is inferior - it is our movement that is inferior. I've seen a fair bit of the Spanish League on TV this season and possession is kept very well compared to England. In England, the emphasis tends to be on keeping a high tempo game and pressuring the opposition defence very quickly (often with long balls forward). On the continent, however, a slower build-up and keeping possession is more important.
What this means is that when continental players pass the ball they always look to move into a position where they can receive it once again. English players, on the other hand, know that the ball is more likely to go forward and therefore don't move into such positions. When England then try to play possession football, it doesn't work, simply because the players aren't in a suitable position to receive the ball back. This is the main thing English players need to improve on - they have the ability to pass the ball, but nobody to pass it to!
Eriksson plays a kind of hybrid between these two different styles which sometimes works due to the ability of one or two of our better players, but all too often fails. Although we were unbeaten in the qualifiers, we were poor in many of the games and only played well in a few. Out of the 4 midfield players who started against Portugal, only one (Gerrard) has any defensive qualities. Scholes is atrocious at tackling and Beckham and Lampard are pretty poor in this area. All can score goals given the opportunity, but the midfield is there to support both the defence and the attack. Our defence played very well throughout the tournament (apart from set pieces!) and they needed to as the midfield was so inept!
Personally, I quite like the Danish style of play, with a strong central midfield and wide players hugging the touchline. Unfortunately, the English don't seem to produce wingers these days for some strange reason. :?
Another thing to consider is that most of the players who are considered our best were in very poor form. Owen is a shadow of the player he was and once again struggled with injury all season, Beckham has played very poorly for Madrid and England since the revelations about misbehaviour in his private life. Scholes has been crap for England for years - all he really offers is goalscoring and yet he's only scored once for England in 3 years! Gerrard also had a poor tournament by his standards. Unfortunately, I can't see much chance of an improvement as long as Eriksson is at the helm. Since he is now earning £4m a year, I can't see him wanting to leave his job soon, either!
What this means is that when continental players pass the ball they always look to move into a position where they can receive it once again. English players, on the other hand, know that the ball is more likely to go forward and therefore don't move into such positions. When England then try to play possession football, it doesn't work, simply because the players aren't in a suitable position to receive the ball back. This is the main thing English players need to improve on - they have the ability to pass the ball, but nobody to pass it to!
Eriksson plays a kind of hybrid between these two different styles which sometimes works due to the ability of one or two of our better players, but all too often fails. Although we were unbeaten in the qualifiers, we were poor in many of the games and only played well in a few. Out of the 4 midfield players who started against Portugal, only one (Gerrard) has any defensive qualities. Scholes is atrocious at tackling and Beckham and Lampard are pretty poor in this area. All can score goals given the opportunity, but the midfield is there to support both the defence and the attack. Our defence played very well throughout the tournament (apart from set pieces!) and they needed to as the midfield was so inept!
Personally, I quite like the Danish style of play, with a strong central midfield and wide players hugging the touchline. Unfortunately, the English don't seem to produce wingers these days for some strange reason. :?
Another thing to consider is that most of the players who are considered our best were in very poor form. Owen is a shadow of the player he was and once again struggled with injury all season, Beckham has played very poorly for Madrid and England since the revelations about misbehaviour in his private life. Scholes has been crap for England for years - all he really offers is goalscoring and yet he's only scored once for England in 3 years! Gerrard also had a poor tournament by his standards. Unfortunately, I can't see much chance of an improvement as long as Eriksson is at the helm. Since he is now earning £4m a year, I can't see him wanting to leave his job soon, either!
Roger Kohli
Newcomer
Does this mean from another position it was incorrect
Personaly I think the goal was good. Otherwise a foul (penalty) by the keeper against Terry (afterall, who is impeeding who?).
bizzoshaker
Newcomer
greece will win it
Re: OT: England
He was described by some press pundits as the best player England had ever had -- and he believed it. Stopped trying, developed a rather serious drugs problem, and has been crap ever since.
This is the problem with telling 18 year old children that they're the best thing in the Universe.
The same thing *will* happen to Wayne Rooney.
amk said:
He was described by some press pundits as the best player England had ever had -- and he believed it. Stopped trying, developed a rather serious drugs problem, and has been crap ever since.
This is the problem with telling 18 year old children that they're the best thing in the Universe.
The same thing *will* happen to Wayne Rooney.
Mariner said:
Through the tournament Gerrard seemed to have major problems with ball control. He played like a sexually frustrated teenager. I can't see Gerrard being any good until he leaves Liverpool, which doesn't look like it's going to happen (why Steven? why?).
Michael Owen has likewise squandered his potential by staying at Anfield. Liverpool seem to have something of a track record of spoiling promising English-born talent.
I think it's rather worrying that next to none of our national team play in foreign leagues (Beckham, Hagreaves, anyone else?). IMO it leads them to a sense of complacency, and limits their exposure to the forms of football that they're likely to encounter when playing at international level.
The only hope is that Benitez will come in and shake things up at Liverpool. Personally, I don't like Houllier's style of play and too many Liverpool players have done nothing over the past few years. My (off the wall) tip for this season - Steve Bruce at Birmingham will work wonders with Heskey and he'll score 20 goals this season! I did say it was off the wall!
As for last night's game, Portugal were much better than Holland who have been disappointing for most of the tournament.
A worthy winner by Maniche, though - goal of the tournament, certainly.
As for last night's game, Portugal were much better than Holland who have been disappointing for most of the tournament.
A worthy winner by Maniche, though - goal of the tournament, certainly.
w.r.t. fowler i think he's had some bad injuries as well and never recovered his speed ( ahem ).
mind you the bastard ALWAYS scores against bolton . . i watched him put 3 past us for leeds, then he goes to city and scores.......... grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
-dave-
crossed fingers for greece coz of the bolton connection ( stelios giannakopolis is a wanderer)
mind you the bastard ALWAYS scores against bolton . . i watched him put 3 past us for leeds, then he goes to city and scores.......... grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
-dave-
crossed fingers for greece coz of the bolton connection ( stelios giannakopolis is a wanderer)
bizzoshaker
Newcomer
rofl you all have been OWNED, GREECE WINS with 10 seconds remaining IN 1st OT
