Epic's behaviour regards Blezinski's Boss Key studios (Boss Key now closed)

[Rangers]

Epic is really trying hard to get on everyone's shitlist with their unethical antics. They blatently ripoff the 100 Player Battle Royal mode from PUBG, but that wasnt enough so now they're trying to steal away resources from other companies too.

Remember the Silicon Knights kerfuffle back in the day too. Add it up and it seems a pattern, wouldn't perspective licensees look at that pattern and be wary? That said, is there really much of any other game in town than UE, for Triple A stuff anyway? Is there any viable alternative? With all the consolidation that has happened and some of the big guys using their own engines...

Anyways I've mentioned before I wouldn't notice it except Sweeney acts like he's the ethics police (seems to really have it out for Microsoft, yet support Apple) on twitter RE, privacy policies etc.

I just cant understand anyone assuming a corporate ethics stance to be an Apple fan.

 

[Rangers]

These are not remotely legal in most countries. Apple, Google and Intel had to settle with the US DoJ in 2015 over such anti-poaching agreements and all were fortunate that this happened in the US and not the EU where penalties are far more severe.

I'm far from a expert but non compete clauses are still a thing in the USA at least AFAIK (cant go work for a similar employer for a certain time after leaving). I read they are not enforceable in California by law for example, but it seems pretty odd they still exist, then, if that's true, which makes me wonder if it is.

In fact the article I read was a rather scary precedent that those non compete clauses had begun to spread from their typical place in high dollar industries, and be used in fast food etc! For example Subway might have it a new employees contract that they weren't allowed to work at another sandwich shop for a certain time after. For people making $7-8 an hour! Ridiculous. The article said civil rights lawyers were taking a harsh look at that though, and rolling back or suing etc.

 

[Grall]

Remember the Silicon Knights kerfuffle back in the day too.

Hm, well, I remember there was a lot of "he said he said" type accusations flying back and forth; I've no idea the extent of the merits of SK's claims - if true, it should have made licensees fairly wary to do business with Epic I'd say, looking back through the foggy haze of my memory. On the other hand, SK was with one exception know as a dev who chronically underdelivered, and very late at that if ever, so who knows. Maybe it was just a desperate cashgrab gamble, trying to shift the blame and gain a payout so they wouldn't go under. *shrug*

Anyway, Bleszinski, didn't he use to work at Epic? (Gears of war n shit, right?) So why would they now be poaching "his" guys? That's kinda petty and unfriendly, wouldn't you say?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It's kind of rough to say how things are going between Boss Key Productions (Cliff Bleszinsky company) and Epic.

Is Epic really poaching their developers or are their developers approaching Epic for open job positions?

I say this as their previous game Lawbreakers seriously underperformed and set the company back a fair bit. They ended up having to sell the IP rights to Nexon to stay afloat.

It might be that not all developers there are confident that trying to copy Fortnite's success (it's much closer to Fortnite than PUBG) is the right move.

It would be illuminating to know whether other former employees have been hired by any other companies or if Epic have been the only ones.

Regards,
SB

 

[JPT]

And where did Boss Key get their people from. If they came from Epic to join BK then they might have the grass was not greener on the other side and are now returning.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

http://www.shacknews.com/article/10...ee-responds-to-cliffy-bs-poaching-allegations

https://twitter.com/x/status/984985240568565760

December 2017

"Boss Key co-founder and COO Arjan Brussee is leaving the LawBreakers developer and heading back to Epic Games."​

 

[Gubbi]

Easy way to prevent developers leaving for a competitor: Pay them more.

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I'm probably never going to be sorry for Cliff "the-future-is-games-as-a-service" Bleszinski.

Nor do I feel like I should be sorry for a dev studio like Boss Key, who doesn't seem to have a single neuron with creativity within their higher-ups.
This is a studio that decided to launch an Overwatch clone in mid-2017, and after that (obviously) failed, they started working on a PUBG clone.

A dev studio that limits itself to clone the current fad to release 1.5-2 years later is practically asking to fail miserably, if you ask me...

 

[Malo]

All levels of dev studios can exist, just as companies like Asylum for the movie world exists and thrives... somehow. Obviously if you're just going to clone crap, you have to do it on a very low budget and very efficiently.

 

[Cyan]

Blezinski is a mediocre douche who happened to launch an ok game on the right platform on the right time.

I'm over simplifying here, but there is a bit of truth to it.

Just an assumption, but...are you talking about GeoW? It helped him to reach his previous status, the cover mechanics and camera is a formula many games used afterwards, like a game I started playing the other day, Spec Ops The Line. In addition to the gameplay mechanics, imho, Gears of War had some very well thought out levels, like the birds' stage, and good bosses. Geow2 was ok, but for some reason I preferred the original over the sequels. Maybe I'd add Jazz Jackrabbit to the list but well, it's not a game I played much tbh.

Is Epic really poaching their developers or are their developers approaching Epic for open job positions?

I say this as their previous game Lawbreakers seriously underperformed and set the company back a fair bit. They ended up having to sell the IP rights to Nexon to stay afloat.

It might be that not all developers there are confident that trying to copy Fortnite's success (it's much closer to Fortnite than PUBG) is the right move.

It would be illuminating to know whether other former employees have been hired by any other companies or if Epic have been the only ones.

Regards,
SB​

that's a very good question. What would one do if you are a developer in a similar situation? You are in a company which had a bumpy start and Epic says.... "Hey there, I offer you some bread and butter".​

 

[milk]

This feels like a good example the sort of "underdog-bias" we tend to have. As soon as Cliffy B painted himself as the small guy being unfairly disadvantaged by the big bully Epic, many people were quick to jump on his side and plea for gov. intervention from Nanny State. All while forgetting to look at the real small guys, the actual employees... Every virtue also holds a vice, in the case of protectionist initiatives, as much as they try to help, they also can patronize. Game devs are not 1800's factory workers. They are sophisticated high skill creatives. They can take care of themselves really. As mentioned in this post, the same laws and regulations that supposedly would make this situation that was perceived as unfair competition, can ricochet and shoot the foot actual low-pay workers such as the ones from food industry. Oh the irony.
When you fiddle with a complex system bigger than your own comprehension, its easier to make it worse, than make it better. No matter how good your intentions are. And society surely is bigger than anybody's full comprehension. Each individual is no more than one of the blind wise men trying to figure out an elephant. Some are touching the tail and calling it a snake, others its tusks and calling it a bull. It's important to really think hard about where your blind-spots might be, and to never forget that there might be a thousand other ones you don't even know about, and never will.
Not that I don't believe in regulation or that I don't think monopolies can be bad (far from it) but we need to be careful with temptations to go after "easy" solutions. They are usually short-sighted, and all have a certain dose of arrogance and totalitarianism "This is for your own good, pleb".
Finally, talented devs fleeing a studio that doesn't seem like it can make a good game is not a testament of free market being bad. It's the opposite. Their workforce has higher chances of being put to good use elsewhere. And they are probably gonna feel more gratification themselves as well. Cliffy is not entitled to success. Nobody is. It is a reward for competence, and that's how it should be. That's what moves the world forward.

I know Shifty will say this is too political for the forums but I felt it was relevant.

 

[Grall]

As soon as Cliffy B painted himself as the small guy being unfairly disadvantaged by the big bully Epic, many people were quick to jump on his side and plea for gov. intervention from Nanny State.

I haven't pleaded for any nanny-state intervention, I just find it strange if it's accurate as reported that Epic recruited staff from Blez's company when Epic not only earned major moolah off of his work directly in the past because of the Gears franchise, but also still make money from them because he's an UE4 engine licensee.

Would you want the company you license your engine from to also be poaching* staff from you? Would that make other people more or LESS inclined to also license UE4...?

*Assuming that is correctly reported.

 

[dobwal]

There is nothing unethical about what Epic is doing.

Epic doesn’t offer its engine and support under the pretense it won’t develop games in the same genre of its clients. And when you are the standard bearer of a genre, which PUBG basically was until Fortnite showed up, you can expect competitors to copy your design. It avoids reinventing the wheel. Also, it makes it easier for players to transition to different titles throughout a genre. Would you like a reality where every time you bought a different FPS, you would have to totally relearn a new control scheme because competitors were too busy trying not to copy each other? Or do you like the current reality where competitors copy good designs and makes it easier for gamers to intuitively jump from one game’s gameplay to the next in the same genre?

Epic is based in Cary, North Carolina which is a county bordering the city of Raleigh where Boss Key is headquartered. So it would be only natural that Boss Key would serve as source for potential employees for Epic to work on Fortnite as well as vice versa. Employees from both companies offer relevant work experience and easy job transitioning. I wouldn’t want to be denied a chance of a great opportunity because a prospective employer didn’t want to hurt the feelings of the leadership of my current employer.

Are most fans of the battle royale genre not served by the presence of Fortnite? It adds an additional game to the genre whose popularity is forcing devs of games like PUBG to iterate faster and better in order to keep their current fans happy. Or risk losing those gamers to competitors that can.

And Epic’s geographical location allows boss key employees to possibly leverage their experience and maximize their compensation without the need to uproot their lives.

Competitors compete and we are better served when companies are more worried about serving us versus serving each other.

 

[BRiT]

I dont see anyone in this thread crying for government intervention, nor has anyone clamored to CliffyB's side because they're an underdog.

 

[milk]

*Some* of the very first posts were asking what laws could be used to stop or punish epic's actions. If thats not state intervention, then what is? This was not the position of everybody, but it sure was that of some.

 

[BRiT]

Do you also view the existing laws against Murder as being state intervention too?

 

[JPT]

Do you also view the existing laws against Murder as being state intervention too?

Yes, but a good one

 

[Cyan]

This feels like a good example the sort of "underdog-bias" we tend to have. As soon as Cliffy B painted himself as the small guy being unfairly disadvantaged by the big bully Epic, many people were quick to jump on his side and plea for gov. intervention from Nanny State. All while forgetting to look at the real small guys, the actual employees... Every virtue also holds a vice, in the case of protectionist initiatives, as much as they try to help, they also can patronize. Game devs are not 1800's factory workers. They are sophisticated high skill creatives. They can take care of themselves really. As mentioned in this post, the same laws and regulations that supposedly would make this situation that was perceived as unfair competition, can ricochet and shoot the foot actual low-pay workers such as the ones from food industry. Oh the irony.
When you fiddle with a complex system bigger than your own comprehension, its easier to make it worse, than make it better. No matter how good your intentions are. And society surely is bigger than anybody's full comprehension. Each individual is no more than one of the blind wise men trying to figure out an elephant. Some are touching the tail and calling it a snake, others its tusks and calling it a bull. It's important to really think hard about where your blind-spots might be, and to never forget that there might be a thousand other ones you don't even know about, and never will.
Not that I don't believe in regulation or that I don't think monopolies can be bad (far from it) but we need to be careful with temptations to go after "easy" solutions. They are usually short-sighted, and all have a certain dose of arrogance and totalitarianism "This is for your own good, pleb".
Finally, talented devs fleeing a studio that doesn't seem like it can make a good game is not a testament of free market being bad. It's the opposite. Their workforce has higher chances of being put to good use elsewhere. And they are probably gonna feel more gratification themselves as well. Cliffy is not entitled to success. Nobody is. It is a reward for competence, and that's how it should be. That's what moves the world forward.

I know Shifty will say this is too political for the forums but I felt it was relevant.

You are talking from an employee's perspective and that sounds realistic. There is also another side of the coin here which is a bit forgotten here, the one related to companies and their policies. If Epic don't have enough talented scouts they don't deserve creative, highly skilled employees. I mean, it was other people's staff who searched for those skilled people, so Epic had half of the work done and then they get that talent, just like they did with Fortnite. I am despising Epic.

On a different note, recent Cliff B. hatred towards the Xbox seems to have an explanation now. His recent derogatory remarks about Microsoft claiming that they offered Lawmakers to Redmond but they rejected it, and the game only appeared on the PS4, consoles-wise, while ending up the game we know already.

He offered a third person shooter. They just slammed the door in Cliff's face.

https://twitter.com/x/status/985644407281143808

 

[milk]

Do you also view the existing laws against Murder as being state intervention too?

Yes. That's why I dont defend absolute extremes. We certainly benefit from some amount of state intervention. The question is how much, and in what manner.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I'm far from a expert but non compete clauses are still a thing in the USA at least AFAIK (cant go work for a similar employer for a certain time after leaving). I read they are not enforceable in California by law for example, but it seems pretty odd they still exist, then, if that's true, which makes me wonder if it is.

In the US if depends where you are. California, Montana, North Dakota, and Oklahoma all have legislation expressly prohibiting non-compete clauses but many States don't have prohibiting legislation but not had their enforceability tested never been been tested in court - which is really the only way the legality of any contract clause is tested.

Unfortunately, except where explicit practices are prohibited by law, it's not unlawful to include non-enforceable clauses in contracts.