Engineering: What qualities make something great or a mess? *spawn from XBox One X*

[function]

X1X board has the look of a chip who's layout has been largely done by automated tools. PS4 looks like something a person would have had a higher degree of input on.

Computers can handle designs that look messy to us because it doesn't matter to them. Humans like to arrange things in more abstracted and regular ways as its easier for us to work with them.

I would speculate that whoever MS contracted out to has a lot of tools for automating layout - saving a lot of time and money. They likely make all kinds of PC like stuff.

Sony, on the other hand, appear to have done more hand tuning of the layout, presumably for perfectly valid reasons.

You would expect both to be perfectly valid engineering paths, but with slightly different objectives.

 

[iroboto]

X1X board has the look of a chip who's layout has been largely done by automated tools. PS4 looks like something a person would have had a higher degree of input on.

Computers can handle designs that look messy to us because it doesn't matter to them. Humans like to arrange things in more abstracted and regular ways as its easier for us to work with them.

I would speculate that whoever MS contracted out to has a lot of tools for automating layout - saving a lot of time and money. They likely make all kinds of PC like stuff.

Sony, on the other hand, appear to have done more hand tuning of the layout, presumably for perfectly valid reasons.

You would expect both to be perfectly valid engineering paths, but with slightly different objectives.

There are advantages to laying a board out manually, mainly you lay it out by function as IIRC. If you know certain features will get used more or have more relationships with each other, you can lay them closer to reduce latency. I don't think automated tools do that.

This seems to matter more with system on chip, though I don't see why it couldn't apply to motherboards.

 

[function]

There are advantages to laying a board out manually, mainly you lay it out by function as IIRC. If you know certain features will get used more or have more relationships with each other, you can lay them closer to reduce latency. I don't think automated tools do that.

This seems to matter more with system on chip, though I don't see why it couldn't apply to motherboards.

That's interesting. The way the X1X memory chips have been staggered in distance from the SoC to the front and back of the board isn't something I saw on the board render from E3 2016 - despite the render seemingly meeting based on real board designs.

Perhaps that could be an example of manual fine tuning during implementation?

 

[iroboto]

That's interesting. The way the X1X memory chips have been staggered in distance from the SoC to the front and back of the board isn't something I saw on the board render from E3 2016 - despite the render seemingly meeting based on real board designs.

Perhaps that could be an example of manual fine tuning during implementation?

From the looks of some basic Wikipedia research. It would appear most PCBs are designed. Heating, cooling, and signal quality appear to be the largest requirements. The automation is only during manufacturing.

This is the basic article I could find:
http://www.electronicdesign.com/embedded/engineer-s-guide-high-quality-pcb-design

 

[MrFox]

As far as I know, autorouting tools are mostly gimmicks in those softwares. Maybe they evolved I don't know.

I think the hard part isn't necessarily the layout, it's the choice of parts in the first place. Most of the parts already have a recommended (or even required) pcb layout anyway. Lots of documentation with very little margin for creativity.

The staggered gddr5 were definitely in the first unveiling video. Could be because of the number of layers, they must be placing each chip as close as the traces/vias density allows, had the opportunity to place the right ones a little closer because there's clearance on one side (while the left side is really packed).

Ps4 pro don't have to do the staggering, with fewer chips to worry about. Still, each chip is as close as possible if you look at the traces, in groups of 3,2,3. There isn't a milimeter left to place them any closer.

The ps4p pcb itself looks cleaner also because they used all the "negative" area as a shield ground on both sides, (we can see all the pieces are via-stitched together) and the shielding is acting as heatsink. MS needed to add a metal enclosure around for emi shielding, less elegant. MS also had to cool the memory by extending significantly the copper sheet, more money. Sony gets that cooling for free and less metal shield necessary. The large contact areas from the shielding is also helping conduct heat from any other parts on the board.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Most people can't look at a circuit board and tell what each piece does....That's why commentary on motherboards, or electronic boards itself is insane. At least for me. I leave mother boards as is as long as they are operating well within their desired parameters.

You don't need a degree in human anatomy to appreciate an attractive female figure, and you don't need any electronics smarts to be able to look at two different mobos that do the same job and see which is prettier.

 

[iroboto]

You don't need a degree in human anatomy to appreciate an attractive female figure, and you don't need any electronics smarts to be able to look at two different mobos that do the same job and see which is prettier.

Lol agreed. But performance is what matters to me. In this case cost, quietness, reliability are the factors that motherboard brings to the table. It's what I value paying for. I don't value paying for an attractive mobo layout since I won't see it without breaking warranty.

As far as this generation goes, anecdotally, Xbox has been very good with its quietness and reliability. No game has ever (*edit; with higher consistency) made the Xbox sound like a jet turbine. And there are far and few reports of Xboxes suffering from specific types of noise issues (coil whine or fan noise). I have anecdotally read significantly more reports about PS4 (all models) in which the whisper quietness does not last.

So I reckon, most of these users suffering from fan noise, jet turbine type symptoms, if somehow it was related to the way the motherboard was designed to save costs, probably would have preferred an uglier board and keep the whisper quiet.

 

[mpg1]

Lol agreed. But performance is what matters to me. In this case cost, quietness, reliability are the factors that motherboard brings to the table. It's what I value paying for. I don't value paying for an attractive mobo layout since I won't see it without breaking warranty.

As far as this generation goes, anecdotally, Xbox has been very good with its quietness and reliability. No game has ever made the Xbox sound like a jet turbine. And there are far and few reports of Xboxes suffering from specific types of noise issues (coil whine or fan noise). I have anecdotally read significantly more reports about PS4 (all models) in which the whisper quietness does not last.

So I reckon, most of these users suffering from fan noise, jet turbine type symptoms, if somehow it was related to the way the motherboard was designed to save costs, probably would have preferred an uglier board and keep the whisper quiet.

Agreed. Also if we are being serious about motherboard aesthetics all of these consoles are automatic fails in my view because they are green instead of black..

 

[bunge]

Lol agreed. But performance is what matters to me. In this case cost, quietness, reliability are the factors that motherboard brings to the table. It's what I value paying for. I don't value paying for an attractive mobo layout since I won't see it without breaking warranty.

As far as this generation goes, anecdotally, Xbox has been very good with its quietness and reliability. No game has ever made the Xbox sound like a jet turbine. And there are far and few reports of Xboxes suffering from specific types of noise issues (coil whine or fan noise). I have anecdotally read significantly more reports about PS4 (all models) in which the whisper quietness does not last.

So I reckon, most of these users suffering from fan noise, jet turbine type symptoms, if somehow it was related to the way the motherboard was designed to save costs, probably would have preferred an uglier board and keep the whisper quiet.

You probably hear less about the one because of the overall sales difference between the two consoles.

 

[mpg1]

You probably hear less about the one because of the overall sales difference between the two consoles.

Entire thread dedicated to PS4 Pro noise on neogaf...sales for that are a lot less than XOne.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1316685

 

[iroboto]

You probably hear less about the one because of the overall sales difference between the two consoles.

well, it's not just a numbers game.
Xbox One has less across the board, it doesn't stop the amount of bitching about it's UI.
Data sampling would probably show that most people bitch about Xbox's UI, Install Speed, lack of power, and exclusives.
With PS4 I only see threads about controller build quality, and general console build quality.

And if you look at above thread they've gone ahead and indicated that OG PS4s will all sound like turbines over time. That's not precise, but may not be entirely inaccurate.

*edit: please note I'm not saying PS4 has a fan issue. I'm just saying if you had a fan issue (like a lot) or you perceive the console to be too loud, I imagine that person reading this thread would rather prefer to toss the attractive mobo and fancy engineered cooling solution for whisper quiet operation.

DF makes minor mention of it as well about it at 4min

 

[mpg1]

That being said...we still don't know X1X noise levels. I remember a Xbox One dev team member posting on reddit that "it's the same as Xbox One S". But that has to be confirmed and I won't be buying one until I see some tests/read feedback from initial buyers as it's is a pretty big factor for me.

 

[function]

As far as I know, autorouting tools are mostly gimmicks in those softwares. Maybe they evolved I don't know.

I know chip layout can be heavily automated, so mobo layout seemed like an ideal activity for a set of helper tools. Though that's nothing more than an assumption on my part...

I think the hard part isn't necessarily the layout, it's the choice of parts in the first place. Most of the parts already have a recommended (or even required) pcb layout anyway. Lots of documentation with very little margin for creativity.

Do you think the sheer volume of consumer electronics Sony manufacture may allow them to use higher cost (and potentially higher quality) components affordably in a way that MS cannot justify?

The staggered gddr5 were definitely in the first unveiling video. Could be because of the number of layers, they must be placing each chip as close as the traces/vias density allows, had the opportunity to place the right ones a little closer because there's clearance on one side (while the left side is really packed).

Yeah, I must have missed the memory layout on the first renders. It's clearly something a long time in the planning.

 

[MrFox]

Gaf anecdotes aside, if some people have a noisy console, the fan is unrelated to the MB.

Coil whine however is related to using open inductors to save 25 cents versus resin filled ones.

Fan noise will be known comparing ceh7100 with xb1x, produced the same year from tsmc. And get a few scatteted samples to play the noise roulette some people are predicting. All of this will probably never happen, from experience most care more about emotional anecdotes. Noise is horribly difficult to measure.

 

[iroboto]

That being said...we still don't know X1X noise levels. I remember a Xbox One dev team member posting on reddit that "it's the same as Xbox One S". But that has to be confirmed and I won't be buying one until I see some tests/read feedback from initial buyers as it's is a pretty big factor for me.

worth waiting to find out. I'm scared shitless. If you've been following my replies, you'd probably guess that I like axial fans.\, because they are very low on noise. Got into a big debate with MrFox or DSoup about axial vs centrifugal fans, and they've been trying to sell me that centrifugal has better cooling properties due to air pressure. But pressure and velocity is exactly what creates noise, and every laptop that is pushed to its limits I can always hear its fans kick in.

Xbox this gen has been all axial so far, so this will be their first centrifugal model, and I'm expecting way more noise, but hopefully not annoyingly loud, but those are big expectations to meet, a system with the same CUs as 4Pro, but clocked significantly higher in a smaller box, is bound to have more challenges.

I just hope they over engineered it.

 

[mpg1]

worth waiting to find out. I'm scared shitless. If you've been following my replies, you'd probably guess that I like axial fans.\, because they are very low on noise. Got into a big debate with MrFox or DSoup about axial vs centrifugal fans, and they've been trying to sell me that centrifugal has better cooling properties due to air pressure. But pressure and velocity is exactly what creates noise, and every laptop that is pushed to its limits I can always hear its fans kick in.

Xbox this gen has been all axial so far, so this will be their first centrifugal model, and I'm expecting way more noise, but hopefully not annoyingly loud, but those are big expectations to meet, a system with the same CUs as 4Pro, but clocked significantly higher in a smaller box, is bound to have more challenges.

I just hope they over engineered it.

It's a larger fan than what is in laptops which should theoretically allow it to spin slower if it's moving more air...

Edit: though if it's funnelling all that air through confined exhaust area it could increase noise perhaps?

 

[function]

worth waiting to find out. I'm scared shitless. If you've been following my replies, you'd probably guess that I like axial fans.\, because they are very low on noise. Got into a big debate with MrFox or DSoup about axial vs centrifugal fans, and they've been trying to sell me that centrifugal has better cooling properties due to air pressure. But pressure and velocity is exactly what creates noise, and every laptop that is pushed to its limits I can always hear its fans kick in.

Xbox this gen has been all axial so far, so this will be their first centrifugal model, and I'm expecting way more noise, but hopefully not annoyingly loud, but those are big expectations to meet, a system with the same CUs as 4Pro, but clocked significantly higher in a smaller box, is bound to have more challenges.

I just hope they over engineered it.

Preach, bother.

I'm all axial in my PC too. Won't buy a blower GPU.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Gaf anecdotes aside, if some people have a noisy console, the fan is unrelated to the MB.

It's related to the overall engineering though, and the mobo ties in with that as you described earlier, such as using the RF shielding as an additional heat sink, say. PS4's design could run a lot quieter.

 

[MrFox]

Turbulence causes noise, I think it looks fine from that perspective. Heatsink is longer so more restriction, so higher rpm required for the air to move. But less air required because more surface. It should even out and have a very hot exhaust. (which sounds bad but hot outlet means very efficient cooling, it's a good thing!)

 

[MrFox]

It's related to the overall engineering though, and the mobo ties in with that as you described earlier, such as using the RF shielding as an additional heat sink, say. PS4's design could run a lot quieter.

Yeah but I wonder if it's related at all, launch sku had a bad batch of heatsink compound, next two skus were very quiet without much design change, minor drop on power consumption. They were cheap on heat paste though.

The cuh7100 should provide anwers next week.