DX6 style MT?

[K.I.L.E.R]

On the advanced materials, I think once we get rid of this DX6 style multitexture, we'll be there. I'd guess in about 2 years we'll be pretty much completely rid of those, and the dominant standard will be VS2.0/PS2.0. A lot of it is up to when we get PS2.0 to low-end and to the integrated graphics solutions, unfortunately.

Doesn't DX7/8/9 have it's own MT?

MT, isn't that just about rendering several layers of textures into a single pass?

I am pretty sure I read that several years ago.

So with PS all we have to do is use 1 texture and the rest you can apply effects through the PS?

I am pretty sure I am right but if anyone thinks I am not then please correct me.

 

[Hyp-X]

Multitexturing was introduced in DX6 and haven't been changed much since.

It's a stage based programming model very similar to ARB_multitexture + ARB_texture_env_combine in OpenGL.

IMHO, it's not the programming model, it's the old cards that we have to get rid of.

 

[NeARAZ]

So with PS all we have to do is use 1 texture and the rest you can apply effects through the PS?

No. PS is just another way to do per-pixel work. It actually just gives you more opportunities, and that doesn't mean that from now on you'll ever use one texture.

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

So with PS all we have to do is use 1 texture and the rest you can apply effects through the PS?

No. PS is just another way to do per-pixel work. It actually just gives you more opportunities, and that doesn't mean that from now on you'll ever use one texture.

Oh yeh, normal maps and the like. :/

When will we see games ONLY using 1 texture but with all te great realism and the like?
I can't wait until textures become obsolete.

 

[Basic]

K.I.L.E.R:
I think you've misinterpreted the initial quote. He's saying he want to get rid of DX6 style MT. He does not say he want to get rid of MT completely. He probably want PS2.0 style MT.

Some textures can be replaced with math expressions, but there are lots that can't. And there's no reason trying to replace those.

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

K.I.L.E.R:
I think you've misinterpreted the initial quote. He's saying he want to get rid of DX6 style MT. He does not say he want to get rid of MT completely. He probably want PS2.0 style MT.

Some textures can be replaced with math expressions, but there are lots that can't. And there's no reason trying to replace those.

Ahh. Whoops.

Thanks

 

[Dave H]

One of the primary uses of pixel shaders--particularly now, in the early days--is to more efficiently implement DX6 multitexturing. A perfect example is Doom3: Doom3 uses PS 1.4/PS 2.0-functionality (R200, ARB2 and NV30 paths) to implement in one pass what takes five passes using DX6/7-style multitexturing (NV10 path); and uses PS 1.1-functionality (NV20 path) to do it in two or sometimes three passes. (As I understand it, the ARB path uses fewer DX6/7-style passes to achieve fewer effects, particularly no specular lighting.)

In any case, except for the ARB path, the effects are exactly the same: there's nothing going on in the pixel shader paths that can't be done with plain old multitexturing, except for higher color precision (in ARB2 and potentially NV30 paths) and the use of math instead of texture lookups in a couple selected places (so far as we know, ARB2 path only). Now, Doom3 is a DX7-functionality game, not DX6; but that's for other reasons, not because the multitexturing model changed from DX6->DX7.

 

[NeARAZ]

When will we see games ONLY using 1 texture but with all te great realism and the like? I can't wait until textures become obsolete.

Textures are good for many different reasons, and there's just no point in making them obsolete.
There is point in stopping thinking about textures as such - eg. normal maps aren't "textures" in a traditional way as they contain vectors not colors. You can also think of a texture as a 2- or 3- dimensional function, expressed in tabular form. Some functions simply don't have analytic forms (hence we need textures to store them), others have analytic forms that are impractical (very slow to compute). Several examples of using such textures is: specular power lookup texture (ok, this can be done using plain math in ps2.0); BRDF factor textures; color mapping textures, etc.

 

[Simon F]

When will we see games ONLY using 1 texture but with all te great realism and the like? I can't wait until textures become obsolete.

Textures are good for many different reasons, and there's just no point in making them obsolete.
There is point in stopping thinking about textures as such - eg. normal maps aren't "textures" in a traditional way as they contain vectors not colors. You can also think of a texture as a 2- or 3- dimensional function, expressed in tabular form. Some functions simply don't have analytic forms (hence we need textures to store them), others have analytic forms that are impractical (very slow to compute). Several examples of using such textures is: specular power lookup texture (ok, this can be done using plain math in ps2.0); BRDF factor textures; color mapping textures, etc.

On this note, it's worth reading the first page of Paul Heckbert's Survey of Texture Mapping

 

[LeStoffer]

When will we see games ONLY using 1 texture but with all te great realism and the like? I can't wait until textures become obsolete.

Textures are good for many different reasons, and there's just no point in making them obsolete.
There is point in stopping thinking about textures as such - eg. normal maps aren't "textures" in a traditional way as they contain vectors not colors. You can also think of a texture as a 2- or 3- dimensional function, expressed in tabular form. Some functions simply don't have analytic forms (hence we need textures to store them), others have analytic forms that are impractical (very slow to compute). Several examples of using such textures is: specular power lookup texture (ok, this can be done using plain math in ps2.0); BRDF factor textures; color mapping textures, etc.

Add to that the banal notion that textures can be the only way for artists to get high quality and/or have precise control over the rendered image.

There are lots of real world surfaces that will be impossible to express in a math based procedural texture if a very realistic look is important. Anyway, as already said, textures can just be regarded as mere data ‘containers’.

 

[ET]

One of the primary uses of pixel shaders--particularly now, in the early days--is to more efficiently implement DX6 multitexturing. A perfect example is Doom3: Doom3 uses PS 1.4/PS 2.0-functionality (R200, ARB2 and NV30 paths) to implement in one pass what takes five passes using DX6/7-style multitexturing (NV10 path); and uses PS 1.1-functionality (NV20 path) to do it in two or sometimes three passes. (As I understand it, the ARB path uses fewer DX6/7-style passes to achieve fewer effects, particularly no specular lighting.)

This comparison of number of passes isn't really a valid comparison of multitexturing models. A valid comparison would be to use both PS and standard MT on the same hardware. After all, the PS1.1 cards support 4 textures per pass, while the PS1.4 support 6. Cards that don't support PS support only 2 or 3 (Radeons) textures per pass.

 

[Tagrineth]

This comparison of number of passes isn't really a valid comparison of multitexturing models. A valid comparison would be to use both PS and standard MT on the same hardware. After all, the PS1.1 cards support 4 textures per pass, while the PS1.4 support 6. Cards that don't support PS support only 2 or 3 (Radeons) textures per pass.

Funny aside:

PS1.1 - GF3/4 - 4 textures per pass.

PS1.4 - R2x0 - 6 textures per pass.

DX7 - Kyro - 8 textures per pass.

 

[LeStoffer]

Bias meters:
Sony[-----|----X]Nintendo
Cheese[X----|-----]Crackers
Dragons[>----|----<]Foxes
Idiocy[-----|-------------------X]Intelligence

What? Are you calling Nintendo cheesy, saying that Dragons is as intelligent as foxes, or is it just that the Sony executives are a bunch of crackers and it doesn't matter whether you mate up with a dragon or fox if you going for idiocy

 

[Tagrineth]

Bias meters:
Sony[-----|----X]Nintendo
Cheese[X----|-----]Crackers
Dragons[>----|----<]Foxes
Idiocy[-----|-------------------X]Intelligence

What? Are you calling Nintendo cheesy, saying that Dragons is as intelligent as foxes, or is it just that the Sony executives are a bunch of crackers and it doesn't matter whether you mate up with a dragon or fox if you going for idiocy

You're nuts...

 

[LeStoffer]

You're nuts...

Thanks...

 

[Testiculus Giganticus]

Well, I think the next big thing in terms of what should change in game engines is giving up traditional texture ops and going the dependant texture ops way.Developers should start focusing on every pixel, and then we`ll all see the difference.If u look at some current engines, like the unreal engine, they`re very traditional-they overlay texture over texture, eventually a detail map, and that`s all.I say that`s not enough 8)

 

[Ostsol]

Detail textures are still a great way to get high detail surfaces without using huge textures, which are costly in terms of memory usage.

 

[Ailuros]

DX7 - Kyro - 8 textures per pass.

Uhmm it's still limited though to 4 for OGL for unknown reasons (unless it changed in the meantime).

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

Detail textures are still a great way to get high detail surfaces without using huge textures, which are costly in terms of memory usage.

Maybe a little TOO costly.

 

[ET]

DX7 - Kyro - 8 textures per pass.

Yeah, forgot about that. Thanks! Now, it would have been interesting to see Carmack add a Kryo code path to Doom3.