Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

Aren't there EU regulations that limit the max power draw for gaming consoles?
Only for suspend / standby modes. There aren't any for gaming mode.
the gaming mode of the games consoles is left out of the agreement entirely

Quite similar, ps4pro had latest amd feature like double rate FP16 math support that was introduced only later in 2017 vega arch., max power consumption was higher than base model (not much, 10W according to df article, but still). Also we have to remember ps4pro was released only 3 years after base model, here we talk about 4 years.
Exactly this. For Pro I am expecting they'll introduce new RT tech (based on that Cerny patent) that will either release simultaneously with new AMD GPU (RDNA4?) or even before like what happened with the PS4 Pro.
 
Exactly this. For Pro I am expecting they'll introduce new RT tech (based on that Cerny patent) that will either release simultaneously with new AMD GPU (RDNA4?) or even before like what happened with the PS4 Pro.

What makes you think Cerny is capable of producing a better RT solution than AMD? Obviously it depends how committed AMD go with RT in RDNA4 but you're looking at a LOT of customization if they're going to rip out AMD's RT solution and put something custom in instead.

That doesn't sound like a sensible move for a mid-gen console, or for future backwards compatibility.
 
What makes you think Cerny is capable of producing a better RT solution than AMD? Obviously it depends how committed AMD go with RT in RDNA4 but you're looking at a LOT of customization if they're going to rip out AMD's RT solution and put something custom in instead.

That doesn't sound like a sensible move for a mid-gen console, or for future backwards compatibility.
I could be wrong but ps5 has the intersection engine API for RT and AMD not?
 
I can see Cerny providing some small, custom tweaks to existing AMD tech, ala the ID buffer. I can't see him designing a fundamentally different approach to how AMD GPUs process RT. I do hope there are no refresh consoles and all efforts and R&D are just focused on PS6/Next Box.
 
But is the hardware itself limited by the API design?

I suppose that leads to another question?

Is API design on PC limiting the hardware ray tracing design in anyway and if it is, does this limit exist for PlayStation when they control the design of both the ray tracing hardware (to a point) and API?

And then that leads to another question.

If the API is limiting PC ray tracing hardware design how much extra performance is there to be had from creating both in tandem?
 
From an API perspective they can obviously expose more of the hardware functionality. But is the hardware itself limited by the API design?
Just a guess, but I don't think AMD uses intersection engine for RT in their GPU, should be something relative to a low data access level to RT use? something not possible via higher level with the Direct X on pc but again I just make such assumption taking the various past comments about the ps5 api released here and there by the third parties
 
Just a guess, but I don't think AMD uses intersection engine for RT in their GPU, should be something relative to a low data access level to RT use? something not possible via higher level with the Direct X on pc but again I just make such assumption taking the various past comments about the ps5 api released here and there by the third parties
They do. PS5 and XSX use the same exact hardware than what's in RDNA2 GPUs.

What makes you think Cerny is capable of producing a better RT solution than AMD? Obviously it depends how committed AMD go with RT in RDNA4 but you're looking at a LOT of customization if they're going to rip out AMD's RT solution and put something custom in instead.

That doesn't sound like a sensible move for a mid-gen console, or for future backwards compatibility.
Because he already designed it somehow! His patent about RT. you shoud read it, it's pretty interesting and detailed.

Don't forget he is an hardware architect. For PS5 we got a very detailed (and original) I/O patent from him and we got pretty much exactly that in PS5. AFAIK Cerny doesn't do useless patents whether for PS5 or PSVR2. I am pretty sure this is going to be into PS5 Pro and it's all very logical that it should be (what's a Pro model would really need?).

And designing such a feature would be perfectly logical considering all stuff he has already designed for PS4, Pro and PS5 whether using off the shelf components or designing new units he thinks developers would need. And I think that tech could (and probably will) also be used in future AMD GPUs.
 
I don't see the PS5 Pro happening next year (2024), because there isn't enough of a jump to be able to double up on the PS5 performance while remaining within the same power constraints.
Pretty much.

The only arguments people are realistically gonna make is 'but ray tracing!', and I simply think people vastly overestimate the appeal of ray tracing on any larger scale.

Even if we're talking like 50w more power or something and the obvious switch to N5/N4, I still think AMD will heavily struggle to provide a PS4 Pro-esque lift in generalized GPU performance. And I dont know why anybody would have faith in AMD's GPU department at this point after RDNA3.

I just dont get what the point will be. PS4 Pro and XB1X had 4k screens and a large uplift in GPU performance to help make use of such new displays. What will the selling point of a PS5 Pro be, exactly? And how on earth do they deliver it at anything less than like $600-700? Do we really think they're gonna discount the PS5 so soon, as well as it's selling?
 
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I'd rather have that than midgen refreshes.

Depends entirely on when they plan to release the next gen where they think the tech will have advanced enough to call it a new generation. It was speculated recently that they would come in 2026, if that is the case then yeah, just wait for that. But if it is indeed more in the 2028 range then a midgen refresh makes more sense.

I just dont get what the point will be. PS4 Pro and XB1X had 4k screens and a large uplift in GPU performance to help make use of such new displays. What will the selling point of a PS5 Pro be, exactly? And how on earth do they deliver it at anything less than like $600-700? Do we really think they're gonna discount the PS5 so soon, as well as it's selling?

Yeah this is a valid point, Sony had 4K TV's to push at the time. The PS4/Xbox One came about right as 4K's were taking off and couldn't take advantage of them.

One potential way they could extend whatever meagre hardware improvements they could make at a reasonable price point as well is to perhaps invest in more advanced reconstruction tech with machine learning- something clearly superior to FSR, and potentially more performant. So maybe you only increase fillrate by 50% at a decent price point - but your reconstruction tech doubles performance but looks better than native? Dunno.

~2 years is still a ways away though. I also agree that it's questionable if 'better ray tracing' is really something console users are clamoring for atm. I mean confirmation bias and all that as this is only based on online forums where it's a skewed sample sure, but the biggest worry I see among console owners is 30fps coming back as the standard for new games, and secondly ~1080p resolutions being the target. People still want res and framerate.

There is no doubt ray tracing can have a huge impact, but if this refresh were to provide that, that also somewhat goes against the philosophy of the previous midgen refresh, which was basically 'More power, but with minimal friction'. Meaning that the games didn't substantially change from either the gamers or the developers perspective, the midgens provided better performance and maybe better texture quality, but beyond that they were the same games. If this refresh mainly differs in substantially better RT hardware, how do you really showcase that without significant differences in the engine for a game? Otherwise it's just higher resolution effects, and I can't see 'sharper reflections' really being much of a selling point.

60fps and something that resembles native 4k though vs 30 and ~1440p, that's a far more easily communicated upgrade.
 
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They do. PS5 and XSX use the same exact hardware than what's in RDNA2 GPUs.


Because he already designed it somehow! His patent about RT. you shoud read it, it's pretty interesting and detailed.

Don't forget he is an hardware architect. For PS5 we got a very detailed (and original) I/O patent from him and we got pretty much exactly that in PS5. AFAIK Cerny doesn't do useless patents whether for PS5 or PSVR2. I am pretty sure this is going to be into PS5 Pro and it's all very logical that it should be (what's a Pro model would really need?).

And designing such a feature would be perfectly logical considering all stuff he has already designed for PS4, Pro and PS5 whether using off the shelf components or designing new units he thinks developers would need. And I think that tech could (and probably will) also be used in future AMD GPUs.
Tell us what's so interesting about it.

And tell us what's so interesting about PS5's I/O as well. Seems to me they've only got a 12 channel controller because they lacked sufficiently advanced NAND chips to achieve the same speeds with anything less at the time(but very easily could now). Otherwise, what's so special about it?

I really dont understand this weird Cerny worship. I feel if there's any 'special sauce' in the PS5, it comes purely from its somewhat more specialized API software level advantage, rather than anything to do with hardware. Cerny hasn't 'designed' anything as far as I can tell, except putting together a decent collection of existing technologies. Which is commendable, but that's a whole different ballgame than actually having true custom feature hardware.
 
Because he already designed it somehow! His patent about RT. you shoud read it, it's pretty interesting and detailed.

Don't forget he is an hardware architect. For PS5 we got a very detailed (and original) I/O patent from him and we got pretty much exactly that in PS5. AFAIK Cerny doesn't do useless patents whether for PS5 or PSVR2. I am pretty sure this is going to be into PS5 Pro and it's all very logical that it should be (what's a Pro model would really need?).

And designing such a feature would be perfectly logical considering all stuff he has already designed for PS4, Pro and PS5 whether using off the shelf components or designing new units he thinks developers would need. And I think that tech could (and probably will) also be used in future AMD GPUs.

There's a big old difference between a high level idea, and engineering complex and extremely powerful dedicated silicon, then integrating it tightly into an existing GPU architecture. That's a big team of highly skilled, highly specialised people working for years. So far work of that magnitude has been part of the core GPU roadmap.

Highly performant custom RT hardware is a big jump up from the relatively small tweaks to existing hardware we've seen in console GPU's, or even the custom add-on blocks like the IO stuff on the PS5 or Xbox Series consoles. I can't see a dedicated RT block that is not tightly integrated with the CU's being particularly viable. I don't expect to see Sony deviating significantly from AMD's core technologies for a Pro revision (if it happens at all).

I'm inclined not to get too carried away with Sauce. After Road to PS5 we heard a lot about "Cerny's Geometry Engine" like he'd designed something unique and god like. Turned out it was pretty much (or exactly) just normal old AMD Geometry Engine.
 
They do. PS5 and XSX use the same exact hardware than what's in RDNA2 GPUs.


Because he already designed it somehow! His patent about RT. you shoud read it, it's pretty interesting and detailed.

Don't forget he is an hardware architect. For PS5 we got a very detailed (and original) I/O patent from him and we got pretty much exactly that in PS5. AFAIK Cerny doesn't do useless patents whether for PS5 or PSVR2. I am pretty sure this is going to be into PS5 Pro and it's all very logical that it should be (what's a Pro model would really need?).

And designing such a feature would be perfectly logical considering all stuff he has already designed for PS4, Pro and PS5 whether using off the shelf components or designing new units he thinks developers would need. And I think that tech could (and probably will) also be used in future AMD GPUs.
XSX has not low access api for RT. It's a "better" way to access to the hardware resources not possible with high level access.
 
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I'm inclined not to get too carried away with Sauce. After Road to PS5 we heard a lot about "Cerny's Geometry Engine" like he'd designed something unique and god like. Turned out it was pretty much (or exactly) just normal old AMD Geometry Engine.
That's absolutely false, GE ps5 occupies bigger space in the hardware chipset than AMD gpu and surely has more set features. But no one has ever said ps5 is unique and god like machine for it. To be fair I heard more such bullshitness like those around XSX hardware than PS5 even from the same MS slides but I find useless such kind of discussion from the last posts.
 
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But no one has ever said ps5 is unique and god like machine for it.
Maybe no one in this thread or maybe not even on this forum but people were making it seem like it was a very special feature and that it was something only the Playstation had. For the uninformed that is the message they got from Cerny's presentation. Also his god like comment was just hyperbole for how people around the internet made things sound.
 
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