DirectX 12: The future of it within the console gaming space (specifically the XB1)

[Shifty Geezer]

No. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

Microsoft's recent Hot Chips 25 presentation on the Xbox One processor suggested that the chip had 15 processors on-board. We were curious as to how that broke down.

"On the SoC, there are many parallel engines - some of those are more like CPU cores or DSP cores. How we count to fifteen: [we have] eight inside the audio block, four move engines, one video encode, one video decode and one video compositor/resizer," says Nick Baker.

From the people who designed and built the machine. It's no more authoritative than that.

There is no secret silicon or extra, undocumented processors. We have the entire SDK documentation! There aren't a further 30 processors hidden away in there that MS hasn't wanted to mention!

 

[Deleted member 86764]

50 co-processors?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

According to the link above:

Microsoft's recent Hot Chips 25 presentation on the Xbox One processor suggested that the chip had 15 processors on-board. We were curious as to how that broke down.

"On the SoC, there are many parallel engines - some of those are more like CPU cores or DSP cores. How we count to fifteen: [we have] eight inside the audio block, four move engines, one video encode, one video decode and one video compositor/resizer,"

So 50 is a slight exaggeration (sarcasm unit definitely not broken). I'm not sure that the audio processors will help with GPU tasks, since I imagine they're very small and designed for audio. I'd also hope that the move engines are already being made use of.

Edit: beaten.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

Nothing was ever hidden-

http://semiaccurate.com/assets/uploads/2013/08/XBox_One_SoC_diagram.jpg

8 processors are inside the audio block (note the plural on the diagram)
Then we have the 4 move engines
The video encode unit
The video decode unit
The video compositor/resizer unit

As Shifty Geezer posted above, this was confirmed by the makers of the console!

Thats 15..

Were are the other 35? I Bet they are in the middle of the 2 GB GDDR5 or the dGPU MisterXMedia once saw in the XRays....

About the audio DSP making graphics... Maybe on music software?

 

[turkey]

50 sounds like 15 if spoken over a poor voip connection or you are not a native English speaker, you make a note and then write an article ?

EDIT: i see no source was given. ignore.

 

[iroboto]

It is rather pointless to gang up on him, I think two messages are sufficient. I do not have an issue with the blue ocean here. If MS did pull off something this large multi-async gpu resource pooling and getting the industry to go with it then we know at least dx12 is a step in the right direction for consumers. There could be lesser but still valuable features in dx12 that could be revealed in coming days, some that could be applicable to X1.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

MultiGPU as a feature makes sense in DX12, if it's doable. It works like a distributed computing program, pooling all resources. There are obvious issues with efficiencies and sharing work though, so I don't know if it's possible or not.

Multi GPU in XB1 makes zero sense because there's only one GPU. With no way to network XB1s together or add a second GPU, it's an aspect of DX12 that's irrelevant to the consoles. Given the Tom's Hardware link doesn't reference consoles whatsoever, that should be pretty obvious.

 

[iroboto]

Absolutely. I guess I feel bad for the other few members we ripped on and they left the forum. I don't think ramr is that type of guy, he is just excited. 5 more days ramr, just wait it out and all will hopefully be revealed. This close to launch a lot of poor rumors could be released so it's best to dial back expectations until we know definitively.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

MultiGPU as a feature makes sense in DX12, if it's doable. It works like a distributed computing program, pooling all resources. There are obvious issues with efficiencies and sharing work though, so I don't know if it's possible or not.

Multi GPU in XB1 makes zero sense because there's only one GPU. With no way to network XB1s together or add a second GPU, it's an aspect of DX12 that's irrelevant to the consoles. Given the Tom's Hardware link doesn't reference consoles whatsoever, that should be pretty obvious.

Maybe not! The low level API can saturate the command processor with draw calls. Dividing the card, although having zero gains would allow for the second command processor do take care of additional commands.

I believe that as an optimization it could be relevant. But I do not see many games saturating the command processor!

 

[3dilettante]

Maybe not! The low level API can saturate the command processor with draw calls. Dividing the card, although having zero gains would allow for the second command processor do take care of additional commands.

I believe that as an optimization it could be relevant. But I do not see many games saturating the command processor!

That could depend on whether the console CPUs can reach the throughput of the desktop processors that demonstrated this happening for Star Swarm.
The GPU front end is more consistent between the platforms than the CPUs are. Since we do not have a ready example of a split front end GPU for this scenario, we do not yet have data on whether there are overheads like additional synchronization that could cause a different bottleneck.

 

[shredenvain]

The 50 processors you guys were speaking of earlier was actually listed as 50 mcus. (Microcontroller units)
That could mean anything and most likely is a reference to embedded memory controllers in the esram and GPU/CPU.
I know some people take this to mean secret magic, but that isn't reality.

 

[mikee]

The 50 was mentioned early on in many articles
http://www.itworld.com/article/2833...-as-a-cpu-force-with-xbox-one-and-kinect.html

It says the 15 is part of the 50 so I guess some of those could be more complicated or very simple, I guess we will find out at GDC ?

 

[Deleted member 86764]

The 50 was mentioned early on in many articles
http://www.itworld.com/article/2833...-as-a-cpu-force-with-xbox-one-and-kinect.html

It says the 15 is part of the 50 so I guess some of those could be more complicated or very simple, I guess we will find out at GDC ?

That article mentions micro control processors. I imagine any GPU or CPU has these. What are you expecting to come out of GDC?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It says the 15 is part of the 50 so I guess some of those could be more complicated or very simple, I guess we will find out at GDC ?

There's nothing to them. Page 4 of the XB1 SOC breakdown : http://www.hotchips.org/wp-content/...1-epub/HC25.26.121-fixed- XB1 20130826gnn.pdf

If the 35 other microcontrollers had any relevance/programmability beyond the general operation and maintenance of the SoC, they'd be highlighted. Also, People Who Know would have looked at the specs and the given info (AMD GPU, Jaguar cores, Tensilica cores and specs, etc.) and seen if there was a significant number of transistors not accounted for that could exist in special extra, secret, hidden processors.

There's also no direct quote, only the article's suggestion. And the article is written by a raving fanboy, it seems -

Among the 50 MCUs are 15 special processors that can handle things like graphics and physics processing. The result is a chip and system that are freakishly powerful and would make any PC gamer drool. The DRAM can access the CPU cache at a rate of 30GB/sec. and non-CPU cache at 68GB/sec. The embedded RAM can transfer data at a rate of 204GBs/sec to different parts of the chip.

The author may well have heard 15 wrong - it's not a common fact associated with XB1. And even if not, there's nothing of significance between everything already known and documented.

 

[mikee]

Hey guys I have no idea, I just posted a link of where the rumors might have started from, thought it might be helpful to confirm it was MCU's as shredinvain (lol @ name btw)

re: GDC hopes, I am hopeful that more details about what the new DX12 features might be, and if anything how these apply to the xbox.

I wish you guys would not jump over peoples comments so much, many people come here to ask questions and you make it very difficult

Peace out

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I wish you guys would not jump over peoples comments so much, many people come here to ask questions and you make it very difficult

I see two (informative) replies and nothing hostile.

 

[DmitryKo]

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/Advanced-DirectX12-Graphics-and-Performance
Advanced DirectX12 Graphics and Performance

• Date: March 4, 2015 from 2:00PM to 3:00PM
• Speakers: Max McMullen

DirectX12 enables next generation games to deliver better performance with greater flexibility and control. This technical session goes deep into the DirectX12 APIs you can use to reduce CPU rendering overhead, manage GPU resource usage more efficiently, and express the most cutting-edge 3D graphics possible across the spectrum of Windows 10 devices. Whether you are building a game for the phone, PC, or Xbox - you don't want to miss this talk.


http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/Better-Power-Better-Performance-Your-Game-on-DirectX12

Better Power, Better Performance: Your Game on DirectX12

• Date: March 6, 2015 from 10:00AM to 11:00AM
• Speakers: Bennett Sorbo

Direct3D 12 enables new performance improvements for your game on Windows 10. Learn how to architect your game engine to best reduce CPU overhead, increase GPU efficiency, and improve frame-rate stability using the new Direct3D 12 API. Understand the fundamentals for building a fast-performing, efficient game engine on Direct3D 12 and where to find the best resources for diving deeper.


http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/PC-Games-for-Windows-10

PC Games for Windows 10

• Date: March 6, 2015 from 1:30PM to 2:30PM
• Speakers: Chuck Walbourn

Windows 10 brings new features for developers targeting the phone, tablet and desktop PC gamers. In addition to DirectX 12 and improved access to modern features, there are better tools for developing, debugging, and profiling games. Learn how your new Windows PC games can take advantage of Windows 10 capabilities and get tips on making your current Windows games work great on Windows 10.

 

[powdercore]

Nothing was ever hidden-

http://semiaccurate.com/assets/uploads/2013/08/XBox_One_SoC_diagram.jpg

8 processors are inside the audio block (note the plural on the diagram)
Then we have the 4 move engines
The video encode unit
The video decode unit
The video compositor/resizer unit

As Shifty Geezer posted above, this was confirmed by the makers of the console!

Thats 15..

Were are the other 35? I Bet they are in the middle of the 2 GB GDDR5 or the dGPU MisterXMedia once saw in the XRays....

About the audio DSP making graphics... Maybe on music software?

A block diagram of the functional blocks show what the designers want the developers to see. I am not saying the XB has any secret items, but a block diagram can (and sometimes intentionally) have missing information. In other words, a block diagram will only show as much as they want to show.

 

[powdercore]

The 50 processors you guys were speaking of earlier was actually listed as 50 mcus. (Microcontroller units)
That could mean anything and most likely is a reference to embedded memory controllers in the esram and GPU/CPU.
I know some people take this to mean secret magic, but that isn't reality.

A microcontroller is like a mini computer usually low power that is designed for a specific purpose or for a general purpose. But the difference is that an MCU is self-contained with a CPU, built-in memory such as SRAM, ROM, RAM, FLASH, etc..., I/Os, and more advanced ones even have graphics. Microcontrollers are not just "embedded memory controllers". Compare a block diagram of a MCU and a DRAM controller and you'll see the difference.

Example:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tms320f28plc83.pdf
http://www.atmel.com/Images/32058S.pdf

 

[Deleted member 86764]

A block diagram of the functional blocks show what the designers want the developers to see. I am not saying the XB has any secret items, but a block diagram can (and sometimes intentionally) have missing information. In other words, a block diagram will only show as much as they want to show.

So the block diagram that was meant to be hidden in its entirety might have hidden parts? Were Microsoft designing a console or the script for the new Inception movie?

 

[Metal_Spirit]

A block diagram of the functional blocks show what the designers want the developers to see. I am not saying the XB has any secret items, but a block diagram can (and sometimes intentionally) have missing information. In other words, a block diagram will only show as much as they want to show.

It can have missing information.

But it has none. At least relevant stuff!

If Microsoft had a game changer feature hidden why not just come out and say it? There is no way to change the PS4 hardware, and that would propel Xbox One sales!

Instead what do we see? Price drops... and Xbox One being sold at 250 euros or less if we discount the bundled games. All this just one year after launch.

If somehow Xbox is found to have hidden hardware I would just say that Microsoft was just plain stupid not to say it.

Instead Microsoft says nothing, drops prices, buys temporary exclusives at high prices to increase sales, and Phil Spencer even comes out saying DX 12 will not dramatically change the Xbox.

This is a Business... not a game! There is no way shareholders would forgive Microsoft for lagging behind in sales while having an hidden ace upon its sleeves and not saying so at a time hardware specs are finalized.