DirectX 12: The future of it within the console gaming space (specifically the XB1)

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Shortbread, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,735
    Likes Received:
    11,208
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    No. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

    From the people who designed and built the machine. It's no more authoritative than that.

    There is no secret silicon or extra, undocumented processors. We have the entire SDK documentation! There aren't a further 30 processors hidden away in there that MS hasn't wanted to mention!
     
  2. ThePissartist

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,494
    Likes Received:
    427
    50 co-processors?

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

    According to the link above:

    So 50 is a slight exaggeration (sarcasm unit definitely not broken). I'm not sure that the audio processors will help with GPU tasks, since I imagine they're very small and designed for audio. I'd also hope that the move engines are already being made use of.

    Edit: beaten.
     
    iroboto likes this.
  3. Metal_Spirit

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    183
    Nothing was ever hidden-

    http://semiaccurate.com/assets/uploads/2013/08/XBox_One_SoC_diagram.jpg

    8 processors are inside the audio block (note the plural on the diagram)
    Then we have the 4 move engines
    The video encode unit
    The video decode unit
    The video compositor/resizer unit

    As Shifty Geezer posted above, this was confirmed by the makers of the console!

    Thats 15..

    Were are the other 35? I Bet they are in the middle of the 2 GB GDDR5 or the dGPU MisterXMedia once saw in the XRays....

    About the audio DSP making graphics... Maybe on music software? ;)
     
    Cyan likes this.
  4. turkey

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    739
    Likes Received:
    429
    50 sounds like 15 if spoken over a poor voip connection or you are not a native English speaker, you make a note and then write an article ?

    EDIT: i see no source was given. ignore.
     
  5. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,904
    Likes Received:
    6,187
    It is rather pointless to gang up on him, I think two messages are sufficient. I do not have an issue with the blue ocean here. If MS did pull off something this large multi-async gpu resource pooling and getting the industry to go with it then we know at least dx12 is a step in the right direction for consumers. There could be lesser but still valuable features in dx12 that could be revealed in coming days, some that could be applicable to X1.
     
  6. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,735
    Likes Received:
    11,208
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    MultiGPU as a feature makes sense in DX12, if it's doable. It works like a distributed computing program, pooling all resources. There are obvious issues with efficiencies and sharing work though, so I don't know if it's possible or not.

    Multi GPU in XB1 makes zero sense because there's only one GPU. With no way to network XB1s together or add a second GPU, it's an aspect of DX12 that's irrelevant to the consoles. Given the Tom's Hardware link doesn't reference consoles whatsoever, that should be pretty obvious. ;)
     
    FarticusMaximus and iroboto like this.
  7. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,904
    Likes Received:
    6,187
    Absolutely. I guess I feel bad for the other few members we ripped on and they left the forum. I don't think ramr is that type of guy, he is just excited. 5 more days ramr, just wait it out and all will hopefully be revealed. This close to launch a lot of poor rumors could be released so it's best to dial back expectations until we know definitively.
     
  8. Metal_Spirit

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    183
    Maybe not! The low level API can saturate the command processor with draw calls. Dividing the card, although having zero gains would allow for the second command processor do take care of additional commands.

    I believe that as an optimization it could be relevant. But I do not see many games saturating the command processor!
     
  9. 3dilettante

    Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,122
    Likes Received:
    2,873
    Location:
    Well within 3d
    That could depend on whether the console CPUs can reach the throughput of the desktop processors that demonstrated this happening for Star Swarm.
    The GPU front end is more consistent between the platforms than the CPUs are. Since we do not have a ready example of a split front end GPU for this scenario, we do not yet have data on whether there are overheads like additional synchronization that could cause a different bottleneck.
     
    iroboto likes this.
  10. shredenvain

    Regular

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages:
    921
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Somewhere in southern U.S.
    The 50 processors you guys were speaking of earlier was actually listed as 50 mcus. (Microcontroller units)
    That could mean anything and most likely is a reference to embedded memory controllers in the esram and GPU/CPU.
    I know some people take this to mean secret magic, but that isn't reality.
     
  11. mikee

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    2
  12. ThePissartist

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,494
    Likes Received:
    427
    That article mentions micro control processors. I imagine any GPU or CPU has these. What are you expecting to come out of GDC?
     
  13. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,735
    Likes Received:
    11,208
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    There's nothing to them. Page 4 of the XB1 SOC breakdown : http://www.hotchips.org/wp-content/...1-epub/HC25.26.121-fixed- XB1 20130826gnn.pdf

    If the 35 other microcontrollers had any relevance/programmability beyond the general operation and maintenance of the SoC, they'd be highlighted. Also, People Who Know would have looked at the specs and the given info (AMD GPU, Jaguar cores, Tensilica cores and specs, etc.) and seen if there was a significant number of transistors not accounted for that could exist in special extra, secret, hidden processors.

    There's also no direct quote, only the article's suggestion. And the article is written by a raving fanboy, it seems -
    The author may well have heard 15 wrong - it's not a common fact associated with XB1. And even if not, there's nothing of significance between everything already known and documented.
     
    Newguy likes this.
  14. mikee

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey guys I have no idea, I just posted a link of where the rumors might have started from, thought it might be helpful to confirm it was MCU's as shredinvain (lol @ name btw)

    re: GDC hopes, I am hopeful that more details about what the new DX12 features might be, and if anything how these apply to the xbox.

    I wish you guys would not jump over peoples comments so much, many people come here to ask questions and you make it very difficult :(

    Peace out
     
  15. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,735
    Likes Received:
    11,208
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    :???: I see two (informative) replies and nothing hostile.
     
  16. DmitryKo

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2002
    Messages:
    694
    Likes Received:
    577
    Location:
    55°38′33″ N, 37°28′37″ E
    http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/Advanced-DirectX12-Graphics-and-Performance
    Advanced DirectX12 Graphics and Performance
    • Date: March 4, 2015 from 2:00PM to 3:00PM
    • Speakers: Max McMullen
    DirectX12 enables next generation games to deliver better performance with greater flexibility and control. This technical session goes deep into the DirectX12 APIs you can use to reduce CPU rendering overhead, manage GPU resource usage more efficiently, and express the most cutting-edge 3D graphics possible across the spectrum of Windows 10 devices. Whether you are building a game for the phone, PC, or Xbox - you don't want to miss this talk.


    http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/Better-Power-Better-Performance-Your-Game-on-DirectX12

    Better Power, Better Performance: Your Game on DirectX12
    • Date: March 6, 2015 from 10:00AM to 11:00AM
    • Speakers: Bennett Sorbo
    Direct3D 12 enables new performance improvements for your game on Windows 10. Learn how to architect your game engine to best reduce CPU overhead, increase GPU efficiency, and improve frame-rate stability using the new Direct3D 12 API. Understand the fundamentals for building a fast-performing, efficient game engine on Direct3D 12 and where to find the best resources for diving deeper.


    http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/PC-Games-for-Windows-10

    PC Games for Windows 10
    Windows 10 brings new features for developers targeting the phone, tablet and desktop PC gamers. In addition to DirectX 12 and improved access to modern features, there are better tools for developing, debugging, and profiling games. Learn how your new Windows PC games can take advantage of Windows 10 capabilities and get tips on making your current Windows games work great on Windows 10.
     
  17. powdercore

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    29
    A block diagram of the functional blocks show what the designers want the developers to see. I am not saying the XB has any secret items, but a block diagram can (and sometimes intentionally) have missing information. In other words, a block diagram will only show as much as they want to show.
     
  18. powdercore

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    29
    A microcontroller is like a mini computer usually low power that is designed for a specific purpose or for a general purpose. But the difference is that an MCU is self-contained with a CPU, built-in memory such as SRAM, ROM, RAM, FLASH, etc..., I/Os, and more advanced ones even have graphics. Microcontrollers are not just "embedded memory controllers". Compare a block diagram of a MCU and a DRAM controller and you'll see the difference.

    Example:
    http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tms320f28plc83.pdf
    http://www.atmel.com/Images/32058S.pdf
     
  19. ThePissartist

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,494
    Likes Received:
    427
    So the block diagram that was meant to be hidden in its entirety might have hidden parts? Were Microsoft designing a console or the script for the new Inception movie?
     
    Metal_Spirit likes this.
  20. Metal_Spirit

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    183
    It can have missing information.

    But it has none. At least relevant stuff!

    If Microsoft had a game changer feature hidden why not just come out and say it? There is no way to change the PS4 hardware, and that would propel Xbox One sales!

    Instead what do we see? Price drops... and Xbox One being sold at 250 euros or less if we discount the bundled games. All this just one year after launch.

    If somehow Xbox is found to have hidden hardware I would just say that Microsoft was just plain stupid not to say it.

    Instead Microsoft says nothing, drops prices, buys temporary exclusives at high prices to increase sales, and Phil Spencer even comes out saying DX 12 will not dramatically change the Xbox.

    This is a Business... not a game! There is no way shareholders would forgive Microsoft for lagging behind in sales while having an hidden ace upon its sleeves and not saying so at a time hardware specs are finalized.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...