DirectX 12: The future of it within the console gaming space (specifically the XB1)

[DmitryKo]

I just never heard it explained as "statically linked" . Do you have a reference to this ' statically linked' assertion of yours?

If infact the details of the GameOS are that the game is a statically linked program, that's great news.

Well, I always assumed that the Game OS aka Exclusive OS and the Direct3D runtime come embedded with the application, just like it was on the Xbox360... that's how the game consoles have been designed for the last 20 years.

From the XDK documentation, Development Environment Tools - Streaming Installation - Deployment Package Schema - Make Package (makepkg.exe):

/gameos <gameos file>

Used with the pack command. Optional parameter that specifies the game OS file to be embedded in the package. If this parameter is not used, or no gameos file is specified, the default game OS file will be used. The default game OS file is installed with the XDK and is located at \Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Durango XDK\sideload\era.xvd

XVD stands for Xbox Virtual Disk, so I'm not sure the executable code is really statically linked, it's probably a separate system partition. But anyway the main point was that both Game OS and monolithic Direct3D 11 runtime - which is a requirement since May 2014 update - are a part of the XDK and come packaged with the game media, so that developers can ship their game with the exact version of the "system" code they were testing against.

 

[DmitryKo]

So in theory you could be running games on Xbox one/windows10 that all have different directX APIs due to the containers?

Uhm... games packaged as universal apps will run on top of the System OS, not the exclusive Game OS, and will be programmed in WinRT/Direct3D 11, not Direct3D 12, since they need to support most common feature levels 9_1 and 9_3 - otherwise they won't run on existing mobile devices and thus lose the entire notion of being "universal".

On the other, exclusive (Game OS) game apps run against the version of the Direct3D that is included with the specific version of the XDK used for game development. And even if Microsoft decides to maintain both Direct3D 11.x and Direct3D 12 in the XDK, only one of them can be selected for a project.

 

[sebbbi]

universal apps ... will be programmed in WinRT/Direct3D 11, not Direct3D 12, since they need to support most common feature levels 9_1 and 9_3 - otherwise they won't run on existing mobile devices and thus lose the entire notion of being "universal".

Microsoft is pushing DirectX 12 also to mobile platforms. See here:
http://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-unveils-directx-12-promises-make-mobile-games-better

 

[DmitryKo]

Microsoft is pushing DirectX 12 also to mobile platforms

Sure, but the problem is, initially there will be very few Windows Mobile 10 devices capable of running Direct3D 12. Tegra K1 and X1 devices should be fully compatible since they have Kepler/Maxwell cores, but most other ARM SOCs do not support feature level 11_0, not to mention virtual memory requirements.

 

[sebbbi]

Sure, but the problem is, initially there will be very few Windows Mobile 10 devices capable of running Direct3D 12. Tegra K1 and X1 devices should be fully compatible since they have Kepler/Maxwell cores, but most other ARM SOCs do not support feature level 11_0, not to mention virtual memory requirements.

All the other mobile GPU manufacturers have also announced their 11_0+ feature level products:
Qualcomm Adreno (11_2): https://developer.qualcomm.com/mobi...ware/mobile-gaming-graphics-adreno/adreno-gpu (current Samsung and HTC flagship phones already use this GPU)
ARM Mali (11_1): http://www.anandtech.com/show/8649/arm-announces-mali-800-series-gpus-t860-t830-t820
Imagination Series 7 (11_2): http://www.imgtec.com/news/detail.asp?ID=933

I would expect that all the flagship phones (including Windows 10 flagship phones) targeting this year's holiday season to support 11_1+ feature level. Of course it would take at least two years until 11_1 devices are mainstream.

 

[DmitryKo]

All the other mobile GPU manufacturers have also announced their 11_0+ feature level products...
I would expect that all the flagship phones (including Windows 10 flagship phones) targeting this year's holiday season to support 11_1+ feature level.

There is no feature level 11_2 - the sources you quote talk about "DirectX 11.2", i.e. Direct3D 11.2 runtime in Windows Phone 8.1, which can actually mean anything from feature level 9_1 to level 11_1 with optional features. Mali-T820/830 parts are quoted as "Direct3D 11 FL9_3" for example.

Then again, support for unified virtual memory addressing is an equally important requirement - earlier VLIW4 parts from AMD and pre-Haswell Intel Graphics parts are not qualified for WDDM 2.0 even though they comply with feature level 11_1. But maybe it's less of a problem for mobile parts which typically lack their own VRAM... https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/tegra/

 

[willardjuice]

There is no feature level 11_2 - the sources you quote talk about "DirectX 11.2", i.e. Direct3D 11.2 runtime in Windows Phone 8.1, which can actually mean anything from feature level 9_1 to level 11_1 with optional features. Mali-T820/830 parts are quoted as "Direct3D 11 FL9_3" for example.

Then again, support for unified virtual memory addressing is an equally important requirement - earlier VLIW4 parts from AMD and pre-Haswell Intel Graphics parts are not qualified for WDDM 2.0 even though they comply with feature level 11_1. But maybe it's less of a problem for mobile parts which typically lack their own VRAM... https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/tegra/

Well there's no such thing as feature level 11_2, but I believe Adreno 4xx is actually feature level 11_1. You're right though that there are currently very few (if any?) Window Phones that support feature level 11_X. New Windows Phones probably will though (I'll assume they will use Adreno 4xx).

 

[sebbbi]

Then again, support for unified virtual memory addressing is an equally important requirement - earlier VLIW4 parts from AMD and pre-Haswell Intel Graphics parts are not qualified for WDDM 2.0 even though they comply with feature level 11_1. But maybe it's less of a problem for mobile parts which typically lack their own VRAM... https://fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/tegra/

VLIW Radeons, pre-Haswell Intel GPUs and pre-Maxwell Nvidia GPUs all lack 11_1 feature level support. Nvidia Fermi and Kepler are lacking UAV support in VS/GS/HS and TIR (target independent rendering) according to Nvidia press release.

Feature level 11_2 is mentioned in many places, but all the new features are either optional or work on existing hardware. Tiled resources tier 2 for example needs hardware support.

 

[DmitryKo]

I believe Adreno 4xx is actually feature level 11_1

That alone doesn't mean it complies with WDDM 2.0 requirements.

VLIW Radeons, pre-Haswell Intel GPUs and pre-Maxwell Nvidia GPUs all lack 11_1 feature level support.

Yep, these are Direct3D 11 feature level 11_0. Does it invalidate my point?

all the new features are either optional or work on existing hardware

They are exposed on Direct3D 11 feature levels 11_0 and 11_1, and I'd expect Direct3D 12 to follow the same basic feature level structure down to level 9_1.

Feature level 11_2 is mentioned in many places

Yes, probaly by someone's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roomate, but not by the Direct3D SDK ufortunately.


BTW, more details on Direct3D 12 should be available in only 10 days:
http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/...1-12-welcomegetting-the-most-out-of-directx12

 

[DmitryKo]

http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/...r-efficiency-and-performance-presented-by-amd

DirectX 12: A New Meaning for Efficiency and Performance (Presented by AMD)

Dave Oldcorn | Software Engineering Fellow, AMD
Stephan Hodes | Developer Technology Engineer, AMD
Max McMullen | Principal Development Lead, Microsoft
Dan Baker | Graphics Architect, Oxide Games

Direct3D 12 adds key new rendering features such as multiple queues for asynchronous compute and DMA, and the ultra-performance API both eliminates performance bottlenecks and enables new techniques. AMD will talk about the key interactions between the new D3D12 capabilities and AMD hardware and how to get the best from both. This session will include live demos.

Takeaway
The attendee will learn more about how to use the D3D12 API and see how the combination of D3D12 and AMD graphics brings console performance and features to the PC



http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/...1-12-welcomegetting-the-most-out-of-directx12

Advanced Visual Effects With DirectX 11 & 12: Welcome/Getting the Most Out of DirectX12

Nicolas Thibieroz | Senior Manager, Gaming Engineering, AMD
David Oldcorn | Software Development Engineer, AMD
Evan Hart | Principal Engineer, NVIDIA

DirectX12 represents the start of a new era for graphics development. Programmers are now empowered to leverage GPU resources and exert a level of control so far unprecedented in standard graphics APIs. In this talk, AMD and NVIDIA will discuss the new programming model and features of the new API. This is an advanced tutorial, for developers familiar with graphics programming, on how to start developing efficient and effective D3D12 applications straight away, packed with useful tips and insights.

Intended Audience
The intended audience for this tutorial includes graphics programmers who are planning or actively developing Direct3D applications.

 

[sebbbi]

Mali-T820/830 parts are quoted as "Direct3D 11 FL9_3" for example.

Yes, and according to the same source (Anandtech) the high end Mali T860 model supports Direct3D FL 11_1. I was explicitly talking about the flagship phones launched at the time frame when Windows 10 is expected to be released.

Nobody yet knows whether there will be any Windows 10 phones released without DX12 support. Microsoft has been quite tight about the minimum hardware requirements in Windows Phone 7 and Windows Phone 8. As a developer I would definitely hope that all Windows 10 phones are DX 12 capable.

Microsoft has clearly stated that the new API is designed so that most of the old (FL 11_0 and 11_1) hardware are compatible with it. It would be odd if this design goal only applies to desktops, and not mobiles at all, since Microsoft has said that mobile devices are an important target for DX 12. Of course there might be some technical roadblocks preventing this on mobile side. If you have some deeper technical knowledge about the potential issues, please share them if you can.

 

[DmitryKo]

I was explicitly talking about the flagship phones launched at the time frame when Windows 10 is expected to be released. Nobody yet knows whether there will be any Windows 10 phones released without DX12 support... As a developer I would definitely hope that all Windows 10 phones are DX 12 capable.

Microsoft has clearly stated that the new API is designed so that most of the old (FL 11_0 and 11_1) hardware are compatible with it. It would be odd if this design goal only applies to desktops, and not mobiles at all

The design goals for WDDM 2.0 and Direct3D 12 were obviously set with existing desktop parts and the Xbox One in mind. It's highly suspicious that no-one explicitly announced Direct3D 12 support on the mobile side so far, and this is one year after the D3D12 announcement. OTOH, desktop parts were confirmed as compatible on the day one. That's why I wouldn't expect many "flagship phones" to support WDDM 2.0 and Direct3D 12 at the time of Windows 10 launch, save for "all Windows 10 phones"... unless GDC2015 brings some major announcements from mobile vendors.

If you have some deeper technical knowledge about the potential issues, please share them if you can.

Only general considerations that ARM graphics parts severely lag behind PC graphics in both performance and features, with the possible exception of Tegra K1/X1, and probably weren't designed with CPU virtual address space compatibility in mind.

 

[liquidboy]

unless GDC2015 brings some major announcements from mobile vendors.

we also have at the same times as GDC2015 the Mobile World Congress 2015 (MWC 2015) March 2-5, we may hear more phone/mobile relevant news at that event ..

 

[sebbbi]

Windows 10 phone technical preview is compatible with many existing Lumia phones. Source: http://anandtech.com/show/8975/windows-10-technical-preview-for-phones-now-available

These old phones are only FL 9_3 compatible, meaning that Windows 10 games still need to support FL 9_3 if the developers wants to support all the devices.

 

[DmitryKo]

Mobile World Congress 2015 (MWC 2015) March 2-5

WinHEC 2015 (Windows Hardware Engineering Community) event, March 18-21
BUILD 2014, April 29-May1.

 

[Jwm]

My Win10 box just updated to Catalyst 15.200, sadly nothing more exciting than that.

 

[Kaotik]

My Win10 box just updated to Catalyst 15.200, sadly nothing more exciting than that.

Huh? Those should be the drivers with DX12 support in them, Anand used those (based on DXDIAG shot)

 

[Jwm]

Huh? Those should be the drivers with DX12 support in them, Anand used those (based on DXDIAG shot)

Still showing WDDM 1.3 and Feature level 11_0, maybe I should swap out the GPU as this build is a 5670 (very light on energy use)?

Spoiler

To keep things on topic...yep no idea how to tie this comment to X1 yet...

 

[iroboto]

Still showing WDDM 1.3 and Feature level 11_0, maybe I should swap out the GPU as this build is a 5670 (very light on energy use)?

Spoiler

To keep things on topic...yep no idea how to tie this comment to X1 yet...

lol this DX12 thread is a bit of a catch all for DX12 so I think you're a little safe. I guess your tie in is trying to see if we can guesstimate the performance of X1 with DX12, or if the drivers reveal information about DX12 and see if we can peer inside the X1 to see if such features exist.

 

[Kaotik]

Still showing WDDM 1.3 and Feature level 11_0, maybe I should swap out the GPU as this build is a 5670 (very light on energy use)?

Spoiler

To keep things on topic...yep no idea how to tie this comment to X1 yet...

VLIW Radeons aren't even supposed to get DX12 support so no wonders there.
Of course it could also be slightly different 15.200-build with DX12 removed, compared to the one used by AnandTech's review