Digital Foundry Microsoft Xbox Scorpio Reveal [2017: 04-06, 04-11, 04-15, 04-16]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by iroboto, Apr 6, 2017.

  1. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,277
    Likes Received:
    2,613
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    Oh shiiiii.......

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...-five-ways-your-existing-games-will-be-better

    Scorpio hardware forces X1 and 360 games in BC mode to 16X aniso.
     
  2. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,578
    Likes Received:
    7,130
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
  3. phoenix_chipset

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    246
    1GB makes sense for what Wii U's OS provides. Suspension of gameplay into web browser ; a speedy one at that. Much better than 7th gen web browsers.

    In terms of what an OS actually should use, it's not bad. Esp. considering 1GB for games was plenty for a console with comparable raw power to the 7th generation consoles (or less, considering the cpu.)

    Doubling what Windows 10 uses, on the other hand is just ridiculous
     
    Shoujoboy and ToTTenTranz like this.
  4. tinokun

    Newcomer Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    66
    Location:
    Peru
    kalelovil, Shoujoboy, iroboto and 7 others like this.
  5. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,277
    Likes Received:
    2,613
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    But can it checkerboard?

    Yep.

    edit: doh! Beaten by a measly minute!
     
    Shoujoboy, mosen, BadTB25 and 2 others like this.
  6. scently

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    149
    They haven't actually said much about which ip leve lthe gpu supports, Polaris was only mentioned in comparison to the amount of CUs and clockspeeds it has. They mentioned over 60 customisations in one of the videos. I suspect we will get a video detailing some of that. Btw, it has hardware support for checkerboard rendering.
     
    kalelovil and mosen like this.
  7. phoenix_chipset

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    246
    Considering the AF, and dynamic resolution increases, it's not a stretch to say Xbox one games will have better image quality than Ps4 games, hehe.
     
    Shoujoboy, BRiT, mosen and 1 other person like this.
  8. fehu

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,729
    Likes Received:
    714
    Location:
    Somewhere over the ocean
    Someone can dare an educated guess on the price based only on the hardware cost?
     
    Shoujoboy and RancidLunchmeat like this.
  9. Ike Turner

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,969
    Likes Received:
    1,993
    $449 or $429
     
  10. Clukos

    Clukos Bloodborne 2 when?
    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,513
    Likes Received:
    3,871
    $449, might be $499.
     
  11. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,922
    Likes Received:
    2,636

    Oooh. *I* called this out as something they could do, but probably wouldn't. 1/2 point for me. ;)

     
    #71 mrcorbo, Apr 6, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
    Shoujoboy, BRiT and function like this.
  12. Clukos

    Clukos Bloodborne 2 when?
    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,513
    Likes Received:
    3,871
    Aha, bingo number two: https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1924328/
    Jun 18, 2016 :D
     
    #72 Clukos, Apr 6, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
    jaFree, Shoujoboy, bunge and 11 others like this.
  13. Entropy

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,196
    Likes Received:
    1,184
    It is fabbed at TSMC and not GF, plus has the benefit of yet another year of process refinement.
    It will be interesting to see the power draw of the retail units.
     
    Shoujoboy, Goodtwin and DavidGraham like this.
  14. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,035
    Likes Received:
    5,576
    If Leadbetter's opinion of a $500 price point is true, then it might not be that good, actually.
    In November we might get Vega 11 at a sub-$300 price point, and people might be able to build ~$650 PCs that largely best the Scorpio in everything.


    That's what I suspected, but why did Leadbetter speak about it as if it was such a great thing?


    I stand corrected then. Great feature to have!


    Let's hope you're right. 4GB for OS sounds ridiculous.
     
  15. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    14,162
    Likes Received:
    5,463
    Really seems like they want out of the console market ... lol

    Overall, I think I'm pretty happy with what's shown so far. I wasn't expecting Ryzen or Vega. What they've shown is pretty much what I expected. Looks like it might be reasonably small, and the cooling design looks nice. Hopefully it isn't too loud. Definitely looks like they focused on making this thing more premium than the Xbox One Fat. Will be interesting to see what finishes are on the case.

    The 4GB of RAM for OS + Apps is pretty much in line with phones. Wonder how the resource split is going to work. I hope foreground apps/games get pretty much the full performance, the way most phones work. Backgrounded apps should get minimal power, just enough to do background audio, voice, notifcations etc.

    Performance sounds good based on Forza, but I guess we'll see how it turns out in the real world. Thank god for improved loading times from having a faster disc. Will be interesting to see how it compares to usb drives. Maybe I'll be copying my stuff back onto the internal, if I get it.

    I like the way they're handling backwards compatibility. Force AF, full clock speed.
     
    Shoujoboy, mosen and RootKit like this.
  16. RancidLunchmeat

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,061
    Likes Received:
    643
    Location:
    In your closet
    @DavidGraham Agreed, once Ryzen hit the consumer market I thought for sure the timeline would have allowed Zen in Scorpio six months from now. I guess not. Little argument for Scorpio being a "next gen" console left at this point.
     
  17. DeanoC

    DeanoC Trust me, I'm a renderer person!
    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,469
    Likes Received:
    185
    Location:
    Viking lands
    Deano's 101 on Command Processors
    -------------------------
    What is a Command Processor? A Command Processor (CP) takes a list of packets AKA commands from the CPU and decodes them firing off the actual hardware to do stuff.

    Whats a command? a command is a binary packet with header and information the hardware will need to perform the job the software asks of it.
    i.e.a draw packet might have this kind of info
    DrawPacket: header, pointer to index buffer, ptr to vertex buffer, state Id

    What does the CP do?
    Internally a GPU isn't logically like the interface provided via API, its essentially a bunch of different IP blocks each with there own registers and state. The CP decodes the packet into those various register sets and dma fetches etc. so that command actually get done.

    CPs have to do A LOT of work, a modern GPU needs many packets of work to not idle, additionally its usually part of its job to ensure MMU tables and caches are flushed, sometimes handle power concerns, exceptions and state changes (preemption etc.). Whilst we like to see nice block diagram of a GPU with 30+ CU blocks, in reality each block is itself made of lots of bits of interacting HW. CPs will help with scheduling (depending on architecture how much) including breaking things in 'right sized' workloads. Because they often have to wait for various conditions, they usually themselves have a few threads and/or cores that can do work even whilst one part of the CP is stalling due to something or other. Additional there are multiple CPU cores/threads, different priorities and parts of the GPU themselves may issue work to the CP in a variety of conditions, the CP has to merge all this in a single stream of hardware instructions and potentially order some of the work once its been done (writes to host memory etc.)

    Oh and the whole thing is hard real time else stuff breaks.

    How does ExecuteXXX work? In a effort to reduce the CPU work, modern APIs have commands the offload work to the CP. A packet like this
    ExecuteDrawPacket: header, number of draws, pointer to draw buffer each containing a index + vertex buffer ptr and state id
    The could be done on the CPU with

    from draw call 0 to number of draw
    DrawPacket: index buffer ptr[draw call], vertex buffer ptr[draw call], state id[draw call]

    So its purely an optimisation reducing work on the CPU and the space/bandwidth up to the CP

    There is also ExecuteIndirect calls, these are a further optimisation where the parameters aren't known until after the CPU push the command into the command buffer
    An example would be where you want to draw bunch of particles but how many is calculated via a compute shader
    They *could* be emulated on the CPU but it would be slow, as it would have to copy the result of the compute shader down to the CPU and then write the command buffer.
    ExecuteIndirect get the CP to fetch the parameters via its own dma which is usually fast as the compute buffer and CP will like share the same memory/cache hierarchy

    BTW Its called microcode, as its essentially the same as old (pre RISC) CPUs, there the CPU ISA was actually decoded by the microcode engine into the real CPU hardware sets.

    So thats the basics of a CP, they are the less glamorous assistant to the magicians in the shader cores, but without them the shader cores would rely on the main CPU a lot more and even then would run at a fraction of the speed they do.

    -------------------------
    Wrote this quickly, so hopefully no major mistakes, though I expect my grammar, spelling and wrong words will be there as usual for when I write stuff.

    HTH,
    Deano
     
    Prophecy2k, corysama, Osamar and 27 others like this.
  18. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,035
    Likes Received:
    5,576
    BRiT and Clukos like this.
  19. Clukos

    Clukos Bloodborne 2 when?
    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,513
    Likes Received:
    3,871
  20. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,477
    Likes Received:
    10,164
    Location:
    The North
    industry guys are in the house ;) so I'm going to shut my mouth and open my ears for the next while and learn something.

    but when I was in audience at Build 2015, this was the demo of execute indirect they put on.
    I think it's pretty important, a cheap way to offload CPU. @Andrew Lauritzen wrote this demo, you may want to ask him about it.

    http://www.dsogaming.com/news/direc...proves-performance-greatly-reduces-cpu-usage/
     
    Shoujoboy, function and mosen like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...