Digital Foundry Microsoft Xbox Scorpio Reveal [2017: 04-06, 04-11, 04-15, 04-16]

[SumoSaki]

Rapid-packed math was shown effectively doubling the amount of hair strands that could be rendered per second. This is done with precision switching, where Vega is able to push FP16 rather than FP32 for reduced precision and increased speed.

 

[Ike Turner]

Microsoft shows Digital Foundry how it's building the next Xbox.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-hardware-deep-dive

 

[MrFox]

Microsoft shows Digital Foundry how it's building the next Xbox.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-hardware-deep-dive

Sadly almost nothing new, just describing the expected production and integration with hyperboles and car references.

Not sure if they have anything left to talk about once we know all the specs, and see the board, and the exploded view of all components.

 

[ramr]

What I don't get about this simulation approach to improve their design is that shouldn't this be AMD's job during the design stages of their APUs and GPUs? It's as if MS would be the "only" one who has an idea how games use their hardware in the first place to localise critical areas and improve on them.

Not at all. MS and Sony are the only ones that could this as they are the platform holders and have access to the data. AMD could theoretically do it for PC but given the massive variance there, the results would be meaningless, or worse generate false positives. The key requirements for a successful project like this is a robust simulation environment, a meaningful model of the system with appropriate levels a granularity, and lots and lots of data. First you build your model. Then you run lots of engines and games through the model to identify "bottlenecks". This is the hand curation step that they mentioned in the first article. Then you have to identify and engineer potential changes that can be made to those bottlenecks. Then you run millions of monte-carlos to evaluate potential non-linear interactions or synergist interactions and optimize your changes that fit your constraints of Frametime, budget, and complexity.

To think of it another way, NVidia flops seem to do more work than AMD flops. Scorpio flops may have closed that gap or even moved ahead by identifying and changing discrete chunks of code or silicon that could be solving a given problem better / faster.

 

[Jay]

The comparisons are useless anyway as there's no way to replicate what was running on the Scorpio demo with Apex on PC. It was a custom bench with a full grid of cars at there max LOD all packed together during the all thing etc. Let's all wait until E3 before wasting time jumping to conclusion.

although i agree, if gonna try to replicate what DF was saying may as well get setting as close as possible.
can't remember the settings, but it sounded like they turned everything up including weather.

i will say that the forza tech demo is more interesting about the delta between x1 to Scorpio than to pc.

 

[iroboto]

So Scorpio wont support all/any SM6.0 requirements?

will support some.
All DX12 GPUs will support SM6.0. They just won't support all the features within SM6.0

 

[iroboto]

Isn't that an argument for not embracing any new technology?


Flags are not the same as requirments. It's more likely SM6.0 can take advantage of RPM but that support in hardware is not required.

Yea poor choice of words. Better wording is that SM6.0 has flags similar to DX Feature levels. I assume one would be checking to see if the GPU supports the function using the flag, if not do this, if so do that. I doubt you're going to force FP32 to emulate FP16.

 

[iroboto]

It may become common optimization in the PC space if NVIDIA ports it to their next mainstream GPU from GP100 and Tegra X1 now that AMD touts it as one of the biggest changes in Vega.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11002/the-amd-vega-gpu-architecture-teaser/2

Things like normal maps won't require 32bit precision, it can accelerate pixel shader performance significantly. The other Vega feature present in the PS4 Pro is Intelligent Workgroup Distributor. Does the Scorpio GPU have any Vega features?

Without knowing the Vega feature set, it's hard to say I don't even know the DX feature levels of Vega, and I thought by now that should be rather unguarded.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Yea poor choice of words. Better wording is that SM6.0 has flags similar to DX Feature levels. I assume one would be checking to see if the GPU supports the function using the flag, if not do this, if so do that. I doubt you're going to force FP32 to emulate FP16.

The flag will be for for the game to know that it can serve RPM-tuned shaders instead of 32-bit shaders if the GPU/driver have set the flag in DirectX. Hair and fur look to be the easy wins. PS4 Pro will be 30% hairier and furrier than Scorpio

 

[Karamazov]

PS4 Pro will be 30% hairier and furrier than Scorpio

scorpio
http://img08.deviantart.net/2f23/i/2016/017/9/a/goku_ssgss_run_3_by_saodvd-d9ocu7g.png

ps4 pro
http://img01.deviantart.net/1112/i/...__dragon_ball_super_by_esteban_93-d92vok0.png

 

[dobwal]

There's nothing that prevents its use in Vulkan or DirectX. Just NVidia have chosen not to expose the feature outside of CUDA. It remains to be seen whether AMD exposing it in Vega will prompt NVidia to change their stance on it.

I don't believe they even expose it in OpenGL or OpenCL either (but I could be wrong). They could easily expose the feature via extensions in Vulkan, OGL, and OCL if they wanted.

Actually this seems to imply that FP16 rate on 1080 is only 1/64 rate (probably artificially limited?).

https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/...scal-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-amp-gtx-1060/6

Basically they view it as a professional and not a consumer facing feature.

Regards,
SB

That devtalk thread references that information from a B3D thread and further along another reference from that same thread explains the circumstance.

16fpX2 isn't artificially limited on gp104. But rather there is only one fp16x2 unit per SM leading to the 1/64 rate.

 

[dobwal]

The flag will be for for the game to know that it can serve RPM-tuned shaders instead of 32-bit shaders if the GPU/driver have set the flag in DirectX. Hair and fur look to be the easy wins. PS4 Pro will be 30% hairier and furrier than Scorpio

Not really, I imagine AMD create a comparison using 16fp vs 32fp using the same gpu. What's the performance difference in comparison to a 32fp only gpu with a 1/3rd more performance in terms of TFLOPs, bandwidth and RAM?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Not really, I imagine AMD create a comparison using 16fp vs 32fp using the same gpu.

What do you mean "not really", that's the purpose of the HW flags in the DirectX APIs! As for AMD, probably, because objectively that's the best comparison to make - so that as many things as possible are equal.

What's the performance difference in comparison to a 32fp only gpu with a 1/3rd more performance in terms of TFLOPs, bandwidth and RAM?

Objectively it's 8.4Tf of FP16 RPM operations vs. 6Tf of 32-bit operations. How many FP32 operations can be optimised as FP16 RPM operations? The same number as the length of a piece of string

 

[AlNom]

The same number as the length of a piece of string

Graphics-String ?

 

[Liandry]

As we know Xbox Scorpio support UHD Blu Ray, does it mean it could read discs up to 100 GB? It sounds good for Scorpio games, because they will take more space. Or MS will not do such thing because original Xbox One don't have UHD Blu Ray?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

As we know Xbox Scorpio support UHD Blu Ray, does it mean it could read discs up to 100 GB? It sounds good for Scorpio games, because they will take more space. Or MS will not do such thing because original Xbox One don't have UHD Blu Ray?

Until Microsoft retire Xbox One that means two SKUs for discs, which has never been an appealing proposition. I had a DVD drive in my PC in 1997 and was still getting games on multiple CD discs ten years later. That's ignoring any economic considerations, i.e. the cost of mastering one 100Gb disc over two standard 50Gb Blu-ray discs.

 

[Michellstar]

As we know Xbox Scorpio support UHD Blu Ray, does it mean it could read discs up to 100 GB? It sounds good for Scorpio games, because they will take more space. Or MS will not do such thing because original Xbox One don't have UHD Blu Ray?

I don't think they'll split physical copies, if they cannot fit on disc higher res textures, the'll come via download.

 

[Liandry]

That's ignoring any economic considerations, i.e. the cost of mastering one 100Gb disc over two standard 50Gb Blu-ray discs.

You want say what MS will put two discs in box for new games, so if you have Original Xbox One or Xbox One S you'll need only disc 1 and if you have Xbox Scorpio you can install data from disc two?

I don't think they'll split phisycal copies, if they cannot fit on disc higher res textures, the'll come via download.

That can be real problem for many people, because you need download ~ 50 GB for each game. Many haven't that option. Me too. I really can download around 1 GB per hour.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

You want say what MS will put two discs in box for new games, so if you have Original Xbox One or Xbox One S you'll need only disc 1 and if you have Xbox Scorpio you can install data from disc two

I didn't follow that.

 

[MrFox]

First two layers standard BR up to 50GB, third layer 33GB 4k texture pack?