Digital Foundry Microsoft Xbox Scorpio Reveal [2017: 04-06, 04-11, 04-15, 04-16]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by iroboto, Apr 6, 2017.

  1. shredenvain

    Regular

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages:
    921
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Somewhere in southern U.S.
    I don't think Sony can patent checkerboard rendering. Ubisoft used it for rainbow six on Ps4/Xbox.
     
    RootKit and BRiT like this.
  2. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,427
    Likes Received:
    3,930
    Only specific implementations are patented. Not the concept of checkerboard in general.

    Hardware ID buffer might be unique to Sony, but MS is free to use a different implementation of a similar concept.
     
    RootKit, shredenvain, BRiT and 2 others like this.
  3. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    20,667
    Likes Received:
    5,759
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Guessing MS doesn't have a similar patent...
     
  4. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,135
    Likes Received:
    2,248
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    MS's approach is that you take the checkerboard render target, expand it so you have double the pixels, and then you also render those pixels at the same time as the others.
     
    RootKit likes this.
  5. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,607
    Likes Received:
    11,036
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Not sure how they can do so without violating that patent. Maybe a technicality given the patent links the IDs with the Z buffer?
     
  6. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,427
    Likes Received:
    3,930
    Okay I agree the patent is the proof Sony definitely owns this, but could MS still have helpers in hardware that can be useful to accelerate checkerboard, not necessarily an ID Buffer, maybe something else? I'm trying to make sense of DF statement it has checkerboard hardware support "just like the PS4 Pro". I really think DF will have to either tell us what they mean, or post a correction.
     
  7. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    20,667
    Likes Received:
    5,759
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Or MS will not speak of it because reasons. >_<
     
    egoless likes this.
  8. ramr

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    32
    Most tech-type method patents really don't have a lot of value as they are typically very easy to engineer around. If you drop 1 step, out of say 20, then the patent doesn't apply to your process. Of course the ones that do have value and are hard to engineer around can have enormous value.
     
    #508 ramr, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  9. mpg1

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Wasn't a type of checkerboarding used on Quantum Break and Rainbow Six Siege?...
     
    shredenvain and BRiT like this.
  10. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,427
    Likes Received:
    3,930
    Sure, but were these implementations indistinguishable from native or did they have artifacts and softness around the edges? Looking at the recent frostbite method, using ID buffer, they compared zoomed out sections. We're seeing 1800p-CB being almost indistinguishable from native 1800p. The question I guess is how much worse it will be on platforms without ID buffer (since they said frostbite would do CB even on PS4/XB1), and/or how much processing overhead will be necessary to reach a similar IQ (if possible at all).
    :runaway:
     
  11. mpg1

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Well the question is how much does the ID buffer help further reduce performance hit when doing checkerboard technique.

    I'm still curious though how many developers would use a checkerboard technique on Scorpio instead of just going with native resolution..
     
  12. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,427
    Likes Received:
    3,930
    I think it will depend on the engines, most third party AAA games would use the big ones, and those will definitely have a good CB implementation optimised for each platforms. Indies might not. I wonder about unity. Also all currently released titles will not go through the trouble of upgrading the engine, so they might improve much more easily on scorpio. Resolution scaling already implemented, etc...

    For new games, if they use CB on pro, but not on scorpio, wouldn't they be making scorpio power advantage disappear in a puff of smoke? Of course not really, because the bandwidth advantage and 2.5GB additional memory remain very good assets. But it could be negligible.
     
  13. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,922
    Likes Received:
    5,723
    Location:
    London, UK
    Yeah, but as Shifty said patents cover methods, i.e. how you do something not what you do. Generally patents aren't really problematic unless somebody nails a very efficient but simple implementation for a complex problem (plus variants), for example MPEG for over a decade. Anything can be engineered around but you typically end up adding complexity which is the enemy of engineers everywhere. Solutions should only be as complex as they absolutely need to be! :yes:
     
    temesgen likes this.
  14. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,607
    Likes Received:
    11,036
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Yes. They were done in software and didn't use an ID buffer. The ID buffer in hardware is something new and Sony seemingly is set to have exclusive use of it, requiring others not licensing the tech to implement the ID buffer in software.

    It's a bit shocking to read a patent and see something actually new and patentable! Also odd that this is Sony and not AMD.

    Oh, and I've just seen the name! Registered to Tobias Berghoff, @T.B. Back in the day he was porting Sacred 2 to PS3. Then landed a job at Sony. His patents show work on AA and reconstruction. This ID buffer was actually invented 3 years ago given the patent date, just missing PS4. Maybe early work on PS4 engines led to this idea?

    Maybe if we chant @T.B. enough, we can summon him to weigh in on what the ID buffer brings? :D
     
    JPT, bunge, AlBran and 2 others like this.
  15. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,922
    Likes Received:
    5,723
    Location:
    London, UK
    They designed custom graphics hardware for two consoles so it's not inconceivable some of those engineers are still around and contributing ideas like this. It may be AMD would come up with this in due course but it's also quite likely their partner had engineers solely working on solutions to the resolution problem and just beat them to it.
     
  16. one

    one Unruly Member
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,823
    Likes Received:
    153
    Location:
    Minato-ku, Tokyo
    I forgot to paste here another patent by Tobias Berghoff, it's in the other thread. It's targeting 4K rendering.

    Method for efficient construction of high resolution display buffers
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US20150287231A1/en
    Priority date 2014-04-05 Filing date 2014-04-05 Publication date 2015-10-08
    If you look at the cross-reference section, it has these patents for PS4 Pro and also patents of the rendering method for PSVR, it seems Neo and Morpheus were developed alongside each other.
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US20150287239A1/en
     
    #516 one, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
    Heinrich4 and temesgen like this.
  17. Jupiter

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    921
    On screenshots. In motion it is different. The higher the number of frames per second, the more it looks like a native resolution. 30fps are significantly more blurry than 60fps.
     
    HBRU likes this.
  18. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,607
    Likes Received:
    11,036
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Wrong thread. This thread is discussion Scorpio. The ID buffer is only raised as we research where it came from and discuss relative impact.
     
  19. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    1,065
    I'm surprised that DF hasn't done their, "after our insight into Scorpio, here's our mocked up pc, comparing to 4pro" video yet.

    which pc games have 4k texture packs and how much more ram do they say they require? Be interesting to see how well Scorpio does with extra 3GB.
     
  20. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,922
    Likes Received:
    5,723
    Location:
    London, UK
    The 4K texture situation on PC is not great. A few games have good texture support (Crysis 3, Witcher 2 - 8K textures) but for most games you will need to go to modding, including the Witcher 3. Some games fall in-between like Skyrim and Fallout 4 which have official texture packs, with Fallout 4's texture pack weighing in at 55Gb but where they are also inconsistent with some textures being much improved, others not at all, others just marginally. Fallout 4 with the HD texture pack "requires" a 8Gb graphics card. It'll run on less in most places fairly ok with some drops here and there but there are places where it'll stutter like crazy with less than 6Gb.

    I'd like to think that Scorpio (and to a lesser degree Pro) may actually help as they're more platforms pushing ~4K where I hope devs are thinking about rethinking texture usage. Somebody will mention "infinite resolution" or algorithmically generated textures before the day is out! :yep2:
     
    Jay, VitaminB6 and Silent_Buddha like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...