Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2011]

[corduroygt]

Neither game is out yet so no conclusion can be deduced. If you want to go by just the beta's then I guess C2 is clearly superior since it had working online play (KZ3's was broken last I checked) but note that would be an equally silly conclusion.

I'm going by what most people find to be better looking in a poll. In fact, the poll is KZ2 vs C2, where Killzone 2 is found to be superior looking by a mile. Isn't that what matters in graphics more than techniques? Most people think that KZ2 is the best looking shooter out there on consoles, and KZ3 looks better than KZ2. Way to downplay MLAA (there is no better console AA solution this gen) by the way when most shooters of the genre have no AA or at most temporal solutions on a subHD buffer.

The strength of what C2 does (among many other things) is in finally allowing fully destructible environments.

Not true judging by C2 beta, and it's unlikely to happen in consoles this generation. If you're talking about PC, sure I'm sure it does, but PC gaming is quickly becoming a niche, and it will be forever relegated to a niche once the next gen consoles are out.

 

[joker454]

Why is destruction so limited in the two MP maps they've put so far you think?

Truth be told I was wondering that myself. Maybe that part of it isn't fully optimized yet, or maybe too much destruction makes for weak multi player games, not sure. I was definitely hoping to see more though. I'm sure it will come in time, if C2 doesn't do it then some other game will.

I'm going by what most people find to be better looking in a poll. In fact, the poll is KZ2 vs C2, where Killzone 2 is found to be superior looking by a mile. Isn't that what matters in graphics more than techniques? Most people think that KZ2 is the best looking shooter out there on consoles, and KZ3 looks better than KZ2. Way to downplay MLAA (there is no better console AA solution this gen) by the way when most shooters of the genre have no AA or at most temporal solutions on a subHD buffer.

Ah I haven't seen said polls. I guess I wouldn't be surprised as the blur and ghosting really irritate me on C2, and KZ3 looks sharp this time around. KZ2 polls never made sense to me as I never thought it was a great looking game, but that's just me. I do feel that other games out there look better than both, but it;s not really fair to compare them to a limited beta. Ultimately I don't think the level I played on the C2 mp beta was a good indicator of what it's visually capable of though. I almost get the feeling they dialed stuff back to guarantee 30fps so that they could test their netcode at full frame rate.

I don't like mlaa so far personally. I'm definitely a fan of post process aa solutions (heck I was working on one myself back in 2008 on ps3) but without sub pixel info I find they just introduce way too many artifacts and moire patterns for my liking, and I suspect they muck with texture detail as well, something which I abhor. I honestly find hardware 4xmsaa to look better, but I understand that it's not compatible with all renderers. Given a choice of qaa or mlaa I'd go with mlaa to be sure, but it's still got a ways to go unless you have a small tv I guess or perhaps play from a far distance to the tv. It will fare better on some games than others. For example I really dislike how it looks on LBP2 but it's 'ok' on KZ3. My theory is that on faster moving games the artifacts are less noticeable, whereas on a slow scroller like LBP2 the edge pixel crawling just screams out at me on the screen. I'm not a big fan of temporal aa. Halo Reach's solution was 'ok' during gameplay, but weak during cutscenes. Ultimately all the post process aa solutions so far scream compromise and I'd take 4xmsaa over all of them in a heartbeat if I had my choice. But it's cool that they keep working on software solutions, maybe someday they will get one that doesn't introduce new issues.

Not true judging by C2 beta, and it's unlikely to happen in consoles this generation. If you're talking about PC, sure I'm sure it does, but PC gaming is quickly becoming a niche, and it will be forever relegated to a niche once the next gen consoles are out.

The beta is too limited for me to make any call like that. You may be right about pc's though after next gen

 

[Turok]

Not true judging by C2 beta, and it's unlikely to happen in consoles this generation. If you're talking about PC, sure I'm sure it does, but PC gaming is quickly becoming a niche, and it will be forever relegated to a niche once the next gen consoles are out.

I think he means it'll be much more feasible to do so because developers will no longer have to worry about things being lit correctly pre and post-destruction, as Cryengine 3's real-time GI implementation means no more having to make sure pre-baked lighting solutions look correct given the changing environment.

 

[joker454]

I think he means it'll be much more feasible to do so because developers will no longer have to worry about things being lit correctly pre and post-destruction, as Cryengine 3's real-time GI implementation means no more having to make sure pre-baked lighting solutions look correct given the changing environment.

Yup, pretty much. Anything that shifts developer time away from hacks and back to more important stuff like design and asset creation is a win in my book. At this point the Crytek dudes probably had their hands full just getting all this new tech working on three platforms. I'm curious to see what the next round of games that use their tech will bring.

 

[L. Scofield]

I'm going by what most people find to be better looking in a poll. In fact, the poll is KZ2 vs C2, where Killzone 2 is found to be superior looking by a mile.

A comparison from one MP level versus an entire game...

 

[Cyan]

Crysis on consoles gets pretty big plus signs for being multi-platform and having a significant and rather cool creation and development environment behind it. It makes detailed comparison with a platform specific title almost pointless.

That said, I can't give any impressions personally because I checked yesterday, but the Crysis 2 demo doesn't seem to be available to me on Live.

You just used the magic word -multiplatform title-. I will explain myself better later.

I find Crysis 2 really exciting. For me it is better than many other games in every regard except overall prettiness. Note that I am talking here about a multiplayer map based on a beta demo, yet I still think it has spectacular graphics.

However, there are people who prefer exclusive titles. If exclusive games didn't get such high billing on "things to praise" list, some console gamers wouldn't have bothered.

If you consider that the reactions exclusive titles get are much more eloquent, despite they don't always look better than others or in some situations are in fact slightly worse, it might explain that some people aren't as excited as others about Crysis 2 and the such.

I think that a lot of it can be really normal. I understand them!! For multiplatform titles there isn't that urgent need to tell everybody how great it is or looks, there is simply an acceptance about how they are and how they look, and that's it.

It all comes down to individuals, There are too many pretty things in those exclusive games that they don't want to miss.... Sometimes though those opinions about exclusive make me want to buy, if only this forum were a podcast or something like that, some skullcandy earbuds that I'd wear, without even playing any music, and they would block out all the noise.

Objectively speaking, in this sense it always has been a lot easier to share opinions in PC forums, where most people are interested in the gameplay and the difference among specs rather than how a game is supposedly meant to run on better -specs aside-.

I like to be supportive of people's opinions but at times those opinions are clouded by platform myths.

Technically wise, my favourite exclusive titles are UC2, Halo Reach, LBP2 and I can't help it but feel some multiplatform titles can stand alongside the best exclusive games in the world.

 

[corduroygt]

A comparison from one MP level versus an entire game...

A 2009 game vs. a 2011 beta. Do you really think KZ3 vs C2 will be any different? KZ3 will be judged to be the better looking game by a vast majority, unless it's the PC version of C2 of course.

 

[Tap In]

I'm going by what most people find to be better looking in a poll.

as described more clearly in the post above anytime you pit a Multiplat game against an exclusive in a random online poll, (especially of a game not yet released) you of course are going to have the Exclusive fans coming out of the woodwork to "defend" against a challenger.

 

[Rangers]

Yes Ps3 fans dominate every poll on the internet usually...means nothing, they crush Wii and 360 alike in any cross platform poll I've seen, which obviously isnt in line with reality

 

[(((interference)))]

Theatre mode doesn't add any AA, it's straight gameplay, the photos taken during theatre mode however does something with the resolution which cleans up the aliasing.

No, theatre mode definitely adds proper MSAA instead of TAA, it's far cleaner than gameplay.

I don't see what the problem is with MLAA, I mean it's not being used as an alternative to 4xMSAA as these titles could hardly afford to do 4xMSAA in the first place.

 

[Arwin]

Rangers, Tap In, how about saving Shifty some time and deleting those last posts yourselves?

Come on guys, try to stay in the spirit of Digital Foundry's technical analysis and stick to the technical facts.

 

[ultragpu]

Yes Ps3 fans dominate every poll on the internet usually...means nothing, they crush Wii and 360 alike in any cross platform poll I've seen, which obviously isnt in line with reality

Also for example on gametrailer, PS3 fans rate down 360 exclusives vids, etc etc...if you see any GOTy catagory award that doesnt go to a PS3 exclusive it will typically have a very low video rating (its funny you can usually tell by the rating if a Ps3 exclusive won the award before even watching the video, heh)

So the fact that Uncharted 2, GoW3 and KZ2 have won so many "best graphics" awards across most gaming sites means nothing then? Surely these games did do something right in the graphics department have they not?

 

[Rangers]

Rangers, Tap In, how about saving Shifty some time and deleting those last posts yourselves?

Come on guys, try to stay in the spirit of Digital Foundry's technical analysis and stick to the technical facts.

Err, we are responding to cordurygt who says it looks best because it "won a poll". So perhaps you should address him not us...

 

[Turok]

So the fact that Uncharted 2, GoW3 and KZ2 have won so many "best graphics" awards across most gaming sites means nothing then? Surely these games did do something right in the graphics department have they not?

Of course it means something, although that something may have more to do with aesthetics rather than technical prowess.

 

[Rangers]

So the fact that Uncharted 2, GoW3 and KZ2 have won so many "best graphics" awards across most gaming sites means nothing then? Surely these games did do something right in the graphics department have they not?

Of course...why wouldn't they?

But then again I dont think sites giving game X best graphics means a lot technically either...many sites will sometimes give a game like "okami", or a Wii game, best graphics because they like the art style.

As you can tell by IGN, most game websites are technical luddites.

 

[Tap In]

Rangers, Tap In, how about saving Shifty some time and deleting those last posts yourselves?

Come on guys, try to stay in the spirit of Digital Foundry's technical analysis and stick to the technical facts.

Why? saying something is better "because it won a poll" deserves a response. Our responses are not attacking in anyway and called attention only to the psychology of random internet polling being used in this thread in place of fact.

 

[ultragpu]

Of course it means something, although that something may have more to do with aesthetics rather than technical prowess.

Or both.

Of course...why wouldn't they?

But then again I dont think sites giving game X best graphics means a lot technically either...many sites will sometimes give a game like "okami", or a Wii game, best graphics because they like the art style.

As you can tell by IGN, most game websites are technical luddites.

Best technical goes beyond just adding a new lighting model you know, if the rest of your engine couldn't keep up on delivering a visually pleasing, coherent presentation then any fancy shaders would be rendered pointless. Every game excels at some technical points but it's the overall balance of trade offs that would separate the best from the good imo.

 

[corduroygt]

as described more clearly in the post above anytime you pit a Multiplat game against an exclusive in a random online poll, (especially of a game not yet released) you of course are going to have the Exclusive fans coming out of the woodwork to "defend" against a challenger.

For each "Exclusive fan coming out of the woodwork to defend against a challenger", there's a Sony/PS3/Blu-ray hater who makes it his life mission to shit on each and every PS3 exclusive, so you can't really say that or know which group has more members.

I never denied that art style influences what people perceive as good graphics though.

 

[Tap In]

For each "Exclusive fan coming out of the woodwork to defend against a challenger", there's a MSFT fan who makes it his life mission to shit on each and every PS3 exclusive, so you can't really say that or know which group has more members.
.

who said anything about PS3 or Msft? I was referring to the psychology of exclusives v Multiplat and random internet polls (which you brought up as a fact representing graphical prowess).

good post explaining it here

 

[corduroygt]

who said anything about PS3 or Msft? I was referring to the psychology of exclusives v Multiplat and random internet polls (which you brought up as a fact representing graphical prowess).

good post explaining it here

When someone's platform of choice does not have many first party exclusives that can compete on graphics, multiplatforms that look better on their platform becomes his point of defense. Hate against a company/product is a strong motivator to vote on polls.