DFC Report: "Clear possibility that PS3 could end upthird in market share"

[Shifty Geezer]

Who needs MS Office? There a point for point free equivalent to MS Office called OpenOffice which reads and writes MS Office formats and is better in many ways.

It'd be nice if true, at this juncture it isn't. eg. Load an Access Database into OOBase and do a mailmerge...

Bu account the database functionality is broken beyond reasonable use. The Word alternative is effective and I hear the preadsheet is quite good too. But point-for-point OOo doesn't cover all MSOffice's features. Okay, it doesn't have to for most people, but there's still quite some way to go I think.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

You have yet to explain how this is so. And obviously we're talking about game consoles, I never mentioned any other platform. [/COLOR]

Ok.. Let me break it down for you.

The reason the PS3 is so ungodly expensive is because it's more than just a console.

The fact that it offers functionality above and beyond that of a gaming console is supposedly what justifies its price.

However, in order to actually gain that functionality you must purchase the $599 version.

Therefore, what justification is there for the $499 crippled version?

 

[Geo]

I guess my point is that I was under the impression we had many indications that the price of the PS3 is not due to Sony trying to profit off of the hardware.

Yep, we sure do. And now we have one from Sony senior leadership that suggests differently.

If you ask me, I lean more towards crediting the former (without giving credit to a specific number re costs, that is). But some people are going to credit what Sony says, no matter what (just as some other people will do the same with MS). And those previous estimates we've had are just that --best faith (one hopes) estimates from people who have some experience and basis for making them, but not perfrect knowledge of the facts and assumptions used.

 

[scooby_dooby]

So how is MS Office different - it requires a hard drive and as much disk space and as much RAM. Wherever you can use MS Office, you can use Open Office. for everything else there is Google Writely - all you need for that is a browser. You don't need any disk space, and you don't need much RAM.

Are you seriously stil arguing this ridiculous position? There is no HDD on Wii, it won't be running any sort of office, any talk otherwise is pointless as it has a 0% probability of ever happening.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Actually, the problem is that the premium for any version of the PS3 over the cost of the 360 will only appeal to a small subset of users.

No that's completely false. The Playstation has huge brand equity and consumer loyalty, many consumers would be willing to pay the premium even if the system were completely identical, just to play they Sony franchises.

But there is no 'core'. There's a unit that includes all the features necessary to use the PS3 as it is intended, and there's a unit that doesn't include those features, can never include those features, and therefore will never allow the PS3 to be used as anything other than an extremely expensive video game console.

Come on you're exagerating just a little bit here. What does that lack of HDMI really mean? The core will play BR movies until at least 2010 and beyond, or at least thats what it seems like right now. So all you're left with is an inability to create some sort of HDCP setup with your PC. Big deal.

I don't see HDCP as something necessary "to use the PS3 as it is intended", we don't even know if sony will implement such a thing. PS3 is meant to play BR movies, and PS3 games, and the core can do both of those things now that the movie studios seemed to have agreed to not activiting the ICT flag for the forseeable future.

 

[expletive]

Ok.. Let me break it down for you.

The reason the PS3 is so ungodly expensive is because it's more than just a console.

The fact that it offers functionality above and beyond that of a gaming console is supposedly what justifies its price.

However, in order to actually gain that functionality you must purchase the $599 version.

Therefore, what justification is there for the $499 crippled version?

I guess its because there will no HD video limitations over component until, what seems to be, 2010 (?). So if you can live with 1080i over component and DD over optical, youre all set with the $499 version.

Come on you're exagerating just a little bit here. What does that lack of HDMI really mean? The core will play BR movies until at least 2010 and beyond, or at least thats what it seems like right now. So all you're left with is an inability to create some sort of HDCP setup with your PC. Big deal.

HDMI 1.3 also provides hi res audio formats over a digital transport. Of course you need to have a compliant receiver on the other end waiting to decode those signals... I dont think most consumers will really care about this and those that would are probably buying a stand alone player anyways...

 

[Ben-Nice]

.

Therefore, what justification is there for the $499 crippled version?

If the PS3 core is crippled then so isn't the 360 premium and the 360 core has a terminal illness

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Come on you're exagerating just a little bit here. What does that lack of HDMI really mean? The core will play BR movies until at least 2010 and beyond, or at least thats what it seems like right now. So all you're left with is an inability to create some sort of HDCP setup with your PC. Big deal.

I can't imagine any early adopter of BR tech that are willing to pay a premium for that tech, that will be willing to pay a premium for something they know definitively will be obsolete before the lifecycle of the format.

I guess that's my problem.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

If the PS3 core is crippled then so isn't the 360 premium and the 360 core has a terminal illness

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

If you want to make the point that the 360 plus external HD-DVD is a crippled system, I'd agree with that as well.

Otherwise, your statements are just trolling.

 

[expletive]

I can't imagine any early adopter of BR tech that are willing to pay a premium for that tech, that will be willing to pay a premium for something they know definitively will be obsolete before the lifecycle of the format.

I guess that's my problem.

There's lots of people still using svideo for their DVD players, if that's a valid analogy...

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

If you want to make the point that the 360 plus external HD-DVD is a crippled system, I'd agree with that as well.

Otherwise, your statements are just trolling.

Well you have to define 'crippled' as being relative to ANY product in the same space or just within the 360 product family. You cant necesserily say something is crippled because it doesnt offer the features of a competitor. To me anyway, crippled means (in its most simplistic) intentionally removed or disabled so as to incent customers to a higher priced model.

You cant say that a Toyota corolla is 'crippled' becuase it doesnt offer 4x4, however, a 4x2 Nissan Pathfinder would be because there is a premium version that offers it (and becuase of the general purpose of an SUV). I think thats where everyone is getting the wires crossed here.

 

[Ben-Nice]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

If you want to make the point that the 360 plus external HD-DVD is a crippled system, I'd agree with that as well.

Otherwise, your statements are just trolling.

Umm the PS3 core can do everything the PS3 premium does except no HDMI

The 360 core literally doesn't have the same functinality as the 360 Premium, i'm not even going to list everything the core can't do that the premium can but for example I tend to like to save my games

 

[Gradthrawn]

Ok.. Let me break it down for you.

The reason the PS3 is so ungodly expensive is because it's more than just a console.

The fact that it offers functionality above and beyond that of a gaming console is supposedly what justifies its price.

However, in order to actually gain that functionality you must purchase the $599 version.

Therefore, what justification is there for the $499 crippled version?

I think you're mixing up post and arguments here. Its very simple. You said the 360 is not crippled compared to the Premium PS3. You said the Base PS3 is crippled compared to the Premium PS3. The reason you gave for this is because it (the Base PS3) can never physically have the same features as the Premium PS3. You then went on to argue that the 360 is not crippled compared to the Premium PS3 because it can add all of the features, except for HDMI. Which is the except same situation as the Base PS3. The one and only feature the Base PS3 and 360 will never have, that the Premium PS3 does have, is HDMI. Every other feature can be added on. By your own logic, since the base PS3 can add on every feature except HDMI, it is not crippled compared to the Premium PS3 just as 360 is not. Your own words:

The $499 is crippled compared to the $599. Not simply because it has a lesser feature set, but because it is physically impossible for it to ever match the feature set... therefore, it's crippled.

No, it couldn't [be considered crippled -Gradthrawn]. The 360 Bundle lacks nothing that can't be added on that the $599 PS3 provides except for HDMI.

Where is the confusion? You make two opposing statements. PS3 base + WiFI + Card Readers is the in the same boat as 360 Premium + WiFI + Card Readers. Somehow, to you, the PS3 Base is crippled, the 360 is not. There have no other discussion between you and I about anything else in this post. So, what I’m looking for is for you to explain how:

PS3 + Add-ons - HDMI = crippled

360 + Add-ons - HDMI = not crippled

Crippled compared to the Premium PS3, that is, per your original statement.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Well you have to define 'crippled' as being relative to ANY product in the same space or just within the 360 product family. You cant necesserily say something is crippled because it doesnt offer the features of a competitor.

Of course not, different products offer different options. The $499 PS3 is crippled because it doesn't offer the features of the $599 version and can never be upgraded to match it.

To me anyway, crippled means (in its most simplistic) intentionally removed or disabled so as to incent customers to a higher priced model.

So gather we're in agreement here?

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Where is the confusion?

The confusion, goes back to my original statement that we're talking about video game consoles.

If you want to talk about multi-media centers, then as I said earlier, you could throw the HD-DVD add on into the mix, compare all products under the criteria of media centers, in which case both the Xbox (of any version) and the $499 version of the PS3 are crippled.

But again, the reason the PS3 costs more than the Xbox is because of its added value as a media center. Yet, that value is significantly decreased on the crippled $499 version, however the premium is still passed onto the consumer.

Would you buy a new HDTV without HDMI? Certainly not, unless it was such an amazing deal (which the PS3 clearly is not).

Essentially, my point is that the only reason to justify the premium of the PS3 over that of the 360 is to point to its abilities as a media player. However, those abilities are crippled and not very attractive for the demographic that will be most interested in it, in the $499 version.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But again, the reason the PS3 costs more than the Xbox is because of its added value as a media center. Yet, that value is significantly decreased on the crippled $499 version, however the premium is still passed onto the consumer.

I'm not undertanding why you think this. Of the zillions of things PS3 can (or should be able to) do, I see one which the low-end version can't. In this list

Play games
Motion Control
EyeToy control
Play DVD movies
Play BRD movies
Output over component
Output over HDMI
Play audio CD
Play audio wave-files
Download movies
Download games
Download music
Save games
Run Linux
LocationFree streaming

I see one things the cheap PS3 can't do. And that's a reduced list. Feature for feature, they're identical devices when you factor in additions that can be added ot the cheaper PS3 except for two points. 1) HDMI can't be added. 2) When using USB peripherals to add Wifi or MemCard readers, you lose one or two USB slots, so can't connect an extra 3 or 4 devices like keyboard, mouse, camera and printer.

I don't see this as significantly decreased value over the full PS3 (depending on the pricing of the extras. If USB Wifi costs $200, it's another story!) and I don't understand why you would. The missing features are features that will impact a tiny proportion of users.

 

[expletive]

Of course not, different products offer different options. The $499 PS3 is crippled because it doesn't offer the features of the $599 version and can never be upgraded to match it.



So gather we're in agreement here?

Yep as long as we're using crippled to compare products within the same family.

 

[expletive]

I'm not undertanding why you think this. Of the zillions of things PS3 can (or should be able to) do, I see one which the low-end version can't. In this list

Play games
Motion Control
EyeToy control
Play DVD movies
Play BRD movies
Output over component
Output over HDMI
Play audio CD
Play audio wave-files
Download movies
Download games
Download music
Save games
Run Linux
LocationFree streaming

I see one things the cheap PS3 can't do. And that's a reduced list. Feature for feature, they're identical devices when you factor in additions that can be added ot the cheaper PS3 except for two points. 1) HDMI can't be added. 2) When using USB peripherals to add Wifi or MemCard readers, you lose one or two USB slots, so can't connect an extra 3 or 4 devices like keyboard, mouse, camera and printer.

I don't see this as significantly decreased value over the full PS3 (depending on the pricing of the extras. If USB Wifi costs $200, it's another story!) and I don't understand why you would. The missing features are features that will impact a tiny proportion of users.

The problem is that the person most interested in a $600 home entertainment device, will have BR player high on their list, probably right after playing games (and some before it). These people are early adopters, and early adopters KNOW that without HDMI they will not be able to get high resolution audio digitally. This would leave them with last gen's DD/DTS or getting the audio over 6 analog cables (perish the thought!) A home theater hobbyist like myself sees the $499 PS3 as an absolute impossibility. So for certain people, yes theres a huge difference. I think the Rancid's point is that the price of the $500 puts it in the range of people who DO care about this functionality, and thats the problem.

 

[OtakingGX]

Play games
Motion Control
EyeToy control
Play DVD movies
Play BRD movies
Output over component
Output over HDMI
Play audio CD
Play audio wave-files
Download movies
Download games
Download music
Save games
Run Linux
LocationFree streaming

You forgot such features as:

Turn on
Turn off
Turn electricty into heat
Act as a paper weight
Make pretty graphics
Look sexy

By making up an arbitrary list of features about myself, then finding that you have all those same features, I could pronounce us identical twins!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You forgot such features as:

Turn on
Turn off
Turn electricty into heat
Act as a paper weight
Make pretty graphics
Look sexy

By making up an arbitrary list of features about myself, then finding that you have all those same features, I could pronounce us identical twins!

Uh, yes, but I couldn't list everything because as you appreciate, the list would go on pretty long...

For comparing features, saying one is at a huge disadvantage, I'd have thought it would be apparent in the feature list of the two machines. Thus I make a feature list of the key points to compare. And I broke down into different outputs because that's the only place HDMI would fit in. On the top-most level, if you don't care about output formats, there's nothing between them.

expletive explained the situation so I can appreciate it.

 

[TheChefO]

Has hdd upgrade ability been confirmed in the $499 version?