Dell&HP slam "erroneous" Intel/MS HDDVD claims

wco81 said:
They can release in both formats but once the PS3 comes out, the Blu-Ray market will just be too much bigger than the HD-DVD market.

Correct. No way can Toshiba sell more HD-DVD units than Sony can sell PS3s. There's just no way possible. So yes I suspect that more Paramount movie being sold on BDs than HD-DVDs. Then after a while if this happens Paramount might just stop selling HD-DVDs altogether.
 
Paramout exec said:
After more detailed assessment and new data on cost, manufacturability and copy protection solutions...
I wonder if MS/Intel lit a fire under BDA and made things happen.
What I really wonder, though, is whether they intended it or not.
 
Inane_Dork said:
I wonder if MS/Intel lit a fire under BDA and made things happen.
What I really wonder, though, is whether they intended it or not.
It was a last ditch effort. HD-DVD was already headed on the way out.
Warner's softening position was believed to be what motivated Microsoft and Intel to announce support of HD DVD last week. But many said at the time that announcement was too little, too late.-Video Business
-aldo
 
Perhaps you all missed this part:

Paramount will still market all its DVD movies in the competing HD DVD format so consumers can have a choice, company officials said.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc...s/california/northern_california/12801241.htm

It's not like Paramount is abandoning HD-DVD, more like they're realizing that there isn't going to be an agreed upon compromise, so they'll have to produce in both formats until there's a clear winner. I still think HD-DVD is the better solution from a consumer cost perspective, but time will tell.
 
Well if MS was right, then we'll see BD and HD-DVD versions of Paramounts movies and we'll be able to compare.

So the BD will be SL (25GB) and the HD-DVD will be DL (30GB) or Hybrid (DL one one side, SD on the other). The HD-DVD versions should be priced less than the BD version at retail for the same movie (even the hybrid?). And the HD-DVD versions will use Microsoft's iHP to have this snazzy PIP effects.

Web sites reviewing these releases will extol the virtues of HD-DVD over BD: better picture quality, lower price for discs, flashier interactivity including PIP (director's commentary with a picture of the talking head inset over the movie).

Will this be enough to overcome the installed-base advantage Blu-Ray is expected to have because of the PS3? Will HD-DVD versions of Paramount's movies have higher sales than their BD versions? That's where the rubber will meet the road.
 
darkblu said:
congrats Alpha, you take the prize for stupidest flamebait in this thread.
Awesome rebuttal. No flamebait anywhere. It's impossible for any opinion in an HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray discussion to be flamebait since none of us are taking sides. Or are we?
 
wco81 said:
Well if MS was right, then we'll see BD and HD-DVD versions of Paramounts movies and we'll be able to compare.

So the BD will be SL (25GB) and the HD-DVD will be DL (30GB) or Hybrid (DL one one side, SD on the other). The HD-DVD versions should be priced less than the BD version at retail for the same movie (even the hybrid?). And the HD-DVD versions will use Microsoft's iHP to have this snazzy PIP effects.

Web sites reviewing these releases will extol the virtues of HD-DVD over BD: better picture quality, lower price for discs, flashier interactivity including PIP (director's commentary with a picture of the talking head inset over the movie).

Will this be enough to overcome the installed-base advantage Blu-Ray is expected to have because of the PS3? Will HD-DVD versions of Paramount's movies have higher sales than their BD versions? That's where the rubber will meet the road.

Those are some wild assumptions there...
 
But they're based on Microsoft's claims that Dual Layer Blu-Ray discs are "years away," that Blu-Ray discs costs more to replicate, that their iHP is better for developing interactive content on these movie discs than BD-Java.

Furthermore, at AVS, there have been claims that even if both formats used VC-1, HD-DVD has a slight advantage in picture quality at the same bitrates.

So I'm granting the best case scenario for HD-DVD and the worst-case scenario for Blu-Ray.

Actually, I guess the worst-case scenario for Blu-Ray would be that the PS3 is the biggest-ever and it gets absolutely no market share or installed base.
 
Crusher said:
Perhaps you all missed this part:


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc...s/california/northern_california/12801241.htm

It's not like Paramount is abandoning HD-DVD, more like they're realizing that there isn't going to be an agreed upon compromise, so they'll have to produce in both formats until there's a clear winner. I still think HD-DVD is the better solution from a consumer cost perspective, but time will tell.

Perhaps you missed page 4 of this thread :p

Nobody is claiming that Paramount has switched sides. The hugely significant news is that until now Paramount had no commitment at all for Blu-Ray. One of the strongest HD-DVD arguments has been its unilateral support by several major Hollywood studios.

I would like to hear your thoughts on how HD-DVD will benefit the consumer over Blu-Ray also. It's quite frankly naive to believe that these products will not be sold to the consumer with huge profit margins because of the [initially] niche market they are being developed for. When manufacturers talk of the cheaper cost of HD-DVD disc production it will be in terms of cents per disc at retail not dollars. Nothing of which the consumer will see.

This interview with a hardware manufacturer talks of an initial 20% difference in cost per disc. That is a trivial amount per disc but enough for manufacturers who are keen on maximising profit.
 
Mmmkay said:
Perhaps you missed page 4 of this thread :p

Nobody is claiming that Paramount has switched sides. The hugely significant news is that until now Paramount had no commitment at all for Blu-Ray. One of the strongest HD-DVD arguments has been its unilateral support by several major Hollywood studios.

No, I didn't miss page 4, but I saw no mention there that Paramount still plans to release HD-DVDs in addition to blu-ray discs. The tone of the comments seem to imply that Paramount has seen the light, or at least changed their opinion of Blu-Ray, when I don't think that's the case at all. I doubt they feel any differently about the two formats than they did a year ago, it's just that they see the writing on the wall. Assuming we are going to have two parallel formats for a while, any major studio would be stupid to reduce their potential customer base by only releasing on one format or another.

Mmmkay said:
I would like to hear your thoughts on how HD-DVD will benefit the consumer over Blu-Ray also. It's quite frankly naive to believe that these products will not be sold to the consumer with huge profit margins because of the [initially] niche market they are being developed for. When manufacturers talk of the cheaper cost of HD-DVD disc production it will be in terms of cents per disc at retail not dollars. Nothing of which the consumer will see.

I'm well aware of the profits companies try to squeeze out of new formats. It happened when music switched from cassettes to CDs, and you can see the same thing in stores now in the UMD section ($25-30 for some of the worst movies on earth, which are only being released so Sony can claim a large library of available titles).

I think the competition between the formats should lower costs, which is a good thing. But speaking in absolute terms, HD-DVD is the cheaper format, and I think they'll use that to their advantage to try and win the market. They'll make more money in the long term that way than they would pricing it the same as Blu-Ray to make a higher margin in the short term and take more risk on who will win.

Mmmkay said:
This interview with a hardware manufacturer talks of an initial 20% difference in cost per disc. That is a trivial amount per disc but enough for manufacturers who are keen on maximising profit.

That's a pretty vague figure, and it's missing a lot of details that matter. What kind of discs is he referring to? ROMs or R/RWs? How many layers/sides? Hybrid or single format? Does the 20% production difference include the factory upgrade costs?

And what about the electronics to run the media? If the PS3 does ship with Blu-Ray drives, that's a benefit, but there are a lot more people with DVD players than PS2s in the world, and even within a single household I bet most people have more TVs with DVD players than they have TVs with PS2s. There's also computer drives to consider, both read-only and burners. Cost of this equipment does factor into consumer purchasing. There's a reason that HDTVs aren't flooding every room in people's homes now. The quality improvement isn't worth the cost for most people, especially for secondary sets, and it's not likely to change by the time the government mandated broadcasting switch is scheduled to occur in the U.S.
 
Crusher said:
No, I didn't miss page 4, but I saw no mention there that Paramount still plans to release HD-DVDs in addition to blu-ray discs.
I meant this post and the ensuing conversation were already covered and you were just repeating what had already been said ;)

Crusher said:
That's a pretty vague figure, and it's missing a lot of details that matter. What kind of discs is he referring to? ROMs or R/RWs? How many layers/sides? Hybrid or single format? Does the 20% production difference include the factory upgrade costs?

Oh I know it's hardly the best quote, I just felt that I should provide something other than Blu-Ray PR showing that manufacturing costs are not significantly different.

Essentially I was trying to say that this cost benefit of HD-DVD is on the manufacturing side and while it may be a good marketing tool, it is likely that the actual retail cost difference will be negligable. Even though it may have more room to maneuver, HD-DVD is not going to benefit from the 'PS3 effect' of a greatly inflated market share. That guarantee of units in homes for Blu-Ray is likely to allow them to price match.

I'll concede that potentially, the initial retail costs for Blu-Ray movies could be more because of immature manufacturing processes and low volume production. We are however talking about the early adopter market who are not necessarily swayed by this.
 
If Warner and Univeresal announces they will release both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, then HD-DVD is finished. Consumers will buy the drive which allows them to play the most movies. Since Sony will never release their movies on HD-DVD, then by implication, Blu-Ray will be the only format to play movies from all studios. Not soon after, no one will bother with HD-DVD.
 
JF_Aidan_Pryde said:
If Warner and Univeresal announces they will release both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, then HD-DVD is finished. Consumers will buy the drive which allows them to play the most movies. Since Sony will never release their movies on HD-DVD, then by implication, Blu-Ray will be the only format to play movies from all studios. Not soon after, no one will bother with HD-DVD.

Well, initially Sony will surely not release anything on HDDVD, and seeing how things are going, i think they never will. But if HDDVD was in a better place, and it "won" the format wars, Sony would have to start releasing movies on HDDVD too. Seeeing how Bluray is doing just fine these days, i think Sony can afford not to bother with HDDVD. And they do have a humongous catalogue of blockbusters, now that MGM is part of them.
 
wco81 said:
Furthermore, at AVS, there have been claims that even if both formats used VC-1, HD-DVD has a slight advantage in picture quality at the same bitrates.
Those claims are irrational. The same bitrate on the same encoder with the same source material would produce the exact same data, no? The storage medium matters zilch.
 
zeckensack said:
Those claims are irrational. The same bitrate on the same encoder with the same source material would produce the exact same data, no? The storage medium matters zilch.

At that point i would expect that the differences in IQ would only be down to the player itself.

AVforums is a good place, but it's not immune from ignorance. I mean.. I post there! :LOL:
 
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