Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[steveOrino]

"quietly confident" But they were loudly confident months ago leading into launch

 

[thicc_gaf]

When I see the "tools" argument I immediately cringe... Like the logic is that the PS5 dev tools are so mature they have hit a performance ceiling and the Xbox tools are so bad they are leaving 30% performance on the table. Its like the "Fine Wine" meme with the difference being that the wine is produced at the same vineyard.

That itself isn't really the issue; realistically no one's saying Sony's tools won't improve. However, it would appear that due to devs on Sony's system having more time on their hands to familiarize themselves with those tools (which are already very similar to PS4's API tools, just enhanced), they started with a higher floor than Microsoft.

The issue with MS's API tools and GDK isn't that it's cumbersome; that's become a misinterpretation. The actual issue is that there simply hasn't been enough time for a lot of 3P devs to familiarize themselves with what's there. COVID's had an impact on both Sony and MS, but if Sony got their stuff up and running sooner, that gave 3P devs that much more time to get familiar with any of the enhancements of API tools specific to PS5.

A lot of the result being seen so far in some of these 3P titles isn't so much PS5 overperforming (otherwise that would seem to me suggesting it's tapping out already, which isn't the case at all), so much as it is Series X underperforming, and lack of any 1P launch titles really, REALLY exacerbates the issue on Microsoft's end. At least if one major 1P exclusive were ready, they'd of had the resources and time to be ahead of the curve compared to 3P titles, like what we're seeing from some of Sony's 1P games on PS5 such as Demon's Souls and Miles Morales.

Instead Microsoft's left completely at the whim of 3P optimizations of development on their platform coming down to familiarity with dev APIs that weren't even finalized until a few months ago, in a global environment where large teams are mainly forced to do work-from-home, cutting into the type of synergy they'd have in a studio proper, together. I don't think that can be understated.

 

[thicc_gaf]

I think there's a lot more fake concern about XBSX's performance than there is real concern. We're talking about extremely small differences on launch games here. Who knows if it's MS being behind on tools or PS5 performing better than expected or whatever but as an XBSX owner I personally feel zero concern about this. The amount of back and forth on this gets annoying. MS on paper has more power and they advertised as such. Do people really blame them for that? They need every sales advantage they can get after what happened with Xbox One, and they can say this without getting sued lol. For all we know the XBSX could still prove to be the better 3P machine in the long run and inside MS they know that will be the case. Personally I don't care if that's the case and games end up looking identical on both consoles. Both PS5 and XBSX owners are paying the same $500 price and getting roughly the same performance, kind of makes sense.

I have to wonder if expectations among some Series X folks would've been better managed if MS didn't have so much messaging focused on owning the power narrative. Truthfully, even back in March they were divulging things outside of raw power, but I think the online discourse (at least in spots like GAF and Era; I didn't see the following here too much or I wasn't paying as much attention then) was completely hooked on teraflops. It's the only thing people cared about, and you were lucky to get people to talk about the SSDs as a distant second.

So I don't blame MS 100% on some of the perception that formed at the time, because they never kept the messaging fully on simply raw power, but that's what stuck for them until Sony did their event, and then we started seeing a massive shift to other things, mainly the SSD. Not all of those reasons were legitimate (i.e console warring), but at least the shift started en masse. It'd of been nice if it happened late last year tho xD.

While I agree that this shouldn't really matter and at the end of the day, it should always be about the games, there is a thought in the back of my head where, if 3P games continue to perform better on PS5, could that really hurt momentum for Series X (and even some of MS's other initiatives) going forward? At least partially, I think it would do some damage, because without that advantage manifesting itself at least mostly consistently in multiplats (even if the actual differences are nothing deal-breaking, and the paper specs never suggested that to begin with tbh), it leaves their selling points down to features & services for the interim.

That means they need the 1P content and ecosystem software exclusives more than ever, because if it's hardcore/core gamers mainly buying these systems for the early phase of the new consoles, does the allure of Gamepass and system features like VRR fully present steer them? Particularly considering there are features in similar vein PS5 has that Series X doesn't (Dualsense controller support for example)? Guess we need to wait a bit and see.

That's why I'm personally really looking forward to Medium, Scorn, BM Infinite etc. to drop. I think those are going to be crucial for Microsoft in the early parts of 2021 to pitch in with momentum. And if that benefits the larger Xbox ecosystem, it ends up benefiting you as an individual player as well, somehow in some way.

 

[Globalisateur]

That itself isn't really the issue; realistically no one's saying Sony's tools won't improve. However, it would appear that due to devs on Sony's system having more time on their hands to familiarize themselves with those tools (which are already very similar to PS4's API tools, just enhanced), they started with a higher floor than Microsoft.

The issue with MS's API tools and GDK isn't that it's cumbersome; that's become a misinterpretation. The actual issue is that there simply hasn't been enough time for a lot of 3P devs to familiarize themselves with what's there. COVID's had an impact on both Sony and MS, but if Sony got their stuff up and running sooner, that gave 3P devs that much more time to get familiar with any of the enhancements of API tools specific to PS5.

A lot of the result being seen so far in some of these 3P titles isn't so much PS5 overperforming (otherwise that would seem to me suggesting it's tapping out already, which isn't the case at all), so much as it is Series X underperforming, and lack of any 1P launch titles really, REALLY exacerbates the issue on Microsoft's end. At least if one major 1P exclusive were ready, they'd of had the resources and time to be ahead of the curve compared to 3P titles, like what we're seeing from some of Sony's 1P games on PS5 such as Demon's Souls and Miles Morales.

Instead Microsoft's left completely at the whim of 3P optimizations of development on their platform coming down to familiarity with dev APIs that weren't even finalized until a few months ago, in a global environment where large teams are mainly forced to do work-from-home, cutting into the type of synergy they'd have in a studio proper, together. I don't think that can be understated.

That's simply not true. Those saying it are damage controlling and are citing (how convenient) unknown sources. But what about listening to the actual devs or known insiders? MS tools are never being so mature according to them. This is the devs that are (or were) saying it, for instance Dirt 5 devs in june 2019 were very confident about XSX tools.

I’ve never worked on a console launch where, while we’re still months away from release, the tools have been this mature, this stable, this easy to work with.

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/06/10/inside-xbox-series-x-optimized-dirt-5/

 

[VitaminB6]

That's simply not true. Those saying it are damage controlling and are citing (how convenient) unknown sources. But what about listening to the actual devs or known insiders? MS tools are never being so mature according to them. This is the devs that are (or were) saying it, for instance Dirt 5 devs in june 2019 were very confident about XSX tools.



https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/06/10/inside-xbox-series-x-optimized-dirt-5/

This is one developer. For all we know he's being put on the spot and doesn't want to say anything bad about Xbox. Maybe he didn't want to say, no actually MS tools are garbage lol IDK. Truthfully no one really knows, so people that are 100% saying tools are bad, and people 100% saying tools aren't are both just speculating. Each side is choosing their point of view based upon what they want for an outcome.

 

[BRiT]

The issue with MS's API tools and GDK isn't that it's cumbersome; that's become a misinterpretation. The actual issue is

Unfortunately the last set of release notes we have is from the leaked June 2020 GDK. We'd love to know what later release notes states and lists as known items. But, from what we know of how things looked then... There are performance issues and not yet implemented features noted in the last set of release notes we have. There's some items around memory usage and resource reservation being slower than desired and other new architectural features not being used yet so they're still using the older paths.

As I said before, unfortunately we don't know if any of this was addressed yet, if it was when, and what sort of impact it had or is still having.

 

[function]

When I see the "tools" argument I immediately cringe... Like the logic is that the PS5 dev tools are so mature they have hit a performance ceiling and the Xbox tools are so bad they are leaving 30% performance on the table. Its like the "Fine Wine" meme with the difference being that the wine is produced at the same vineyard.

"quietly confident" But they were loudly confident months ago leading into launch

You post quite a lot in these threads, but it's almost never anything of a technical nature. It's mostly just shitposting about other people's opinions and motives. Other people do it too, but you in particular have stood out recently.

Would be good if this kind of stuff could be wound back in somewhat, and we could talk about the systems, the games, and what we think they might be showing.

 

[RDGoodla]

This is one developer. For all we know he's being put on the spot and doesn't want to say anything bad about Xbox. Maybe he didn't want to say, no actually MS tools are garbage lol IDK. Truthfully no one really knows, so people that are 100% saying tools are bad, and people 100% saying tools aren't are both just speculating. Each side is choosing their point of view based upon what they want for an outcome.

Unfortunately the last set of release notes we have is from the leaked June 2020 GDK. We'd love to know what later release notes states and lists as known items.

Is the picture of GDK real? Who can guarantee it is real?

Why do we believe a picture from internet rather than actual interview of Dirt 5 developers?

 

[scently]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331606418869379075

https://www.theverge.com/21718936/xbox-series-x-ps5-performance-game-comparison

On that note, Ubisoft just released a patch adding Quality mode on XSX/PS5 and Performance mode on XSS. Also mentioned in the patch note is "improved experience on XSX/S including screen tearing.

The full patch note/details are here: https://discussions.ubisoft.com/topic/84566/assassin-s-creed-valhalla-title-update-1-0-4?lang=en-US
The patch will be live tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

While I agree that this shouldn't really matter and at the end of the day, it should always be about the games, there is a thought in the back of my head where, if 3P games continue to perform better on PS5, could that really hurt momentum for Series X (and even some of MS's other initiatives) going forward? At least partially, I think it would do some damage, because without that advantage manifesting itself at least mostly consistently in multiplats (even if the actual differences are nothing deal-breaking, and the paper specs never suggested that to begin with tbh), it leaves their selling points down to features & services for the interim.

Partially sure, but there has never been evidence that a significant portion of the market make their console decision based on performance. It's why Pro never outsold PS4, why One X didn't outsell One S, why PS4/Pro gamers didn't abandon their platform when One X was released. PS3 ran the vast majority of third party games worse than 360 and yet PS3 only gained tremendous sales momentum over time.

The vast majority of people buying consoles don't care abut an of this crap. Show them a DF video and they'll look at you like you're insane.

 

[BRiT]

Who can guarantee it is real?

Those of us who have the full PDF.

 

[iroboto]

On that note, Ubisoft just released a patch adding Quality mode on XSX/PS5 and Performance mode on XSS. Also mentioned in the patch note is "improved experience on XSX/S including screen tearing.

The full patch note/details are here: https://discussions.ubisoft.com/topic/84566/assassin-s-creed-valhalla-title-update-1-0-4?lang=en-US
The patch will be live tomorrow.

Patch notes for those that are curious:

CONTENT
Graphics/Performance Mode Introduction

Added an option to the game that allows players to choose between Performance or Visual Quality.

Feature breakdown:

• This option is available for Xbox Series X|S & PlayStation5.
• Choosing Performance allows the game to adapt the resolution and graphic settings to maintain 60 FPS.
• Choosing Quality enables the game to run maximum resolution and graphic settings while maintaining 30 FPS.
• Default values since the launch of the game are as follows:
• Xbox Series X / PlayStation5: Performance
• Xbox Series S: Quality

Miscellaneous

• Added a new background image to the title screen.
• Added various VFX to enhance visuals.
• Added an option that will automatically assign all nodes on the path when acquiring a central skill.
• Added rune categories to the rune menu. All runes are now categorized in Weapon & Armor runes.
• Added a warning when switching from a language that supports TTS to one that doesn't.
• Sliders can now be moved with left/right arrows on M&K and controllers.
• Increased fabric limit to 82.
• Added fabric to traders once the settlement has reached Level 6.
• Added offering altar requirements to the world map.

Balancing

• Updated gear quality and gear to their correct values.
• Added Assassination damage stats on the character stats page.
• Removed duplicate gear from inventory.
• Heavy and light attack stats will now adjust correctly based on acquired skill nodes.
• Heavy attack modifiers will no longer be applied to range attacks.

Game improvements

Performance and Stability

• Improved stability and performance.
• (Xbox Series) Improved experience on Xbox Series S | X consoles including screen tearing
• (PC) Addressed a VRAM/RAM leakage issue when alt tabbing to desktop.

 

[VitaminB6]

what do you guys think quality mode will be? 30fps?

Yeah it says 30FPS in the notes.

• Choosing Quality enables the game to run maximum resolution and graphic settings while maintaining 30 FPS.

 

[BRiT]

On that note, Ubisoft just released a patch adding Quality mode on XSX/PS5 and Performance mode on XSS. Also mentioned in the patch note is "improved experience on XSX/S including screen tearing.

The full patch note/details are here: https://discussions.ubisoft.com/topic/84566/assassin-s-creed-valhalla-title-update-1-0-4?lang=en-US
The patch will be live tomorrow.

Curious about the sizes of the patches. Is the PS5 so small because of packed assets or is it smaller code binary or simply less being patched?

• Xbox Series X|S: ~5.3 GB
• Xbox One: ~4.9 GB
• PlayStation 5: ~2.5 GB
• PlayStation 4: ~4.1 GB
• PC: ~4.3 GB

 

[iroboto]

Yeah it says 30FPS in the notes.

• Choosing Quality enables the game to run maximum resolution and graphic settings while maintaining 30 FPS.

I like the direction games are headed with quality and performance.

I honestly don't see many people choosing quality over performance though, it's a rough switch on demon souls, the blurring is just so obvious in that game at 30fps while turning.

 

[Shortbread]

The performance are basically equal.

This. Gamers on both sides need to relax and enjoy gaming.

 

[mr magoo]

Partially sure, but there has never been evidence that a significant portion of the market make their console decision based on performance. It's why Pro never outsold PS4, why One X didn't outsell One S, why PS4/Pro gamers didn't abandon their platform when One X was released. PS3 ran the vast majority of third party games worse than 360 and yet PS3 only gained tremendous sales momentum over time.

The vast majority of people buying consoles don't care abut an of this crap. Show them a DF video and they'll look at you like you're insane.

Yes everything you said it’s true but I think many people who have console didn’t felt presssure to upgrade to pro versions with just resolution upgrade or better frame rates. Many people didn’t have 4K TVs. I think now situation is quite different many people didn’t get console due to shortages and still waiting to get one.
Right now for someone who decided to get XSX he may ask himself questions like beside gamepass what do I get? PS5 offers better exclusives and performance looks better and have fancier controller. Since I cannot get XSX now maybe I should cancel my preorder and preorder ps5 instead. Or maybe I am completely wrong.

 

[iroboto]

Curious about the sizes of the patches. Is the PS5 so small because of packed assets or is it smaller code binary or simply less being patched?

• Xbox Series X|S: ~5.3 GB
• Xbox One: ~4.9 GB
• PlayStation 5: ~2.5 GB
• PlayStation 4: ~4.1 GB
• PC: ~4.3 GB

hmm. Xbox patches have traditionally been larger, I wonder if it's because each game runs in it's own VM, so the patches must include other things.

 

[BRiT]

This. Gamers on both sides need to relax and enjoy gaming.

That's what I've been saying since before and after the specs were publicly revealed -- all will be fine. Everyone has the option of playing on the best Sony Console or the Best Microsoft Console either have ever made. Also for the most part, no one even had to get a second job to afford either.

 

[VitaminB6]

Wonder if Digital Foundry will be retesting this after the XBSX patch? I know they're probably super busy with a million things right now.
Game improvements

Performance and Stability

• Improved stability and performance.
• (Xbox Series) Improved experience on Xbox Series S | X consoles including screen tearing
• (PC) Addressed a VRAM/RAM leakage issue when alt tabbing to desktop.