Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[PSman1700]

And the last Ratchet and Clank is the best R&C selling title of the franchise.

Should be, its an all-time ps2 classic remake/remaster.

 

[Arwin]

https://uploadvr.com/sony-next-gen-vr-controllers-finger-tracking/

https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3313831.3376712

Look forward to this being a product, but is probably still a ways out ... but I like it!

 

[Karmaprof]

This has already been explained as wrong thinking a couple of times.

BW is a rate, not a quantity, defined by the amount of data divided by time. You're just looking at the amount of data and not the time needed to read that data. For the period of time the CPU is accessing the RAM, it can read 448 GB/s, meaning a fraction of a second to read some GBs of data. When the audio accesses the RAM, it can read 448 GB/s, meaning a fraction of a second to read some GBs of data. And when the GPU is accessing the RAM, it can read 448 GB/s, meaning a fraction of a second to read some GBs of data.

Now if in one second, you have the CPU read 50 GB and then the audio read 20 GB, that'll take about 0.156 seconds, leaving 0.844 seconds left of that one second for the GPU to access data. In that 0.844 seconds, the GPU will be able to read at most 378 GB/s. But the speed of that data would be 378 GB / 0.844 seconds which gives the rate of 448 GB/s.

A car is advertised as having a top speed of 140 mph. If you take that car out and drive flat out at 140 mph for 30 minutes, you'll have covered a distance of 70 miles in 0.5 hours which gives a speed (rate) of 70 / 0.5 = 140 mph.

If you take that car out at 140 mph for 30 minutes, then stop the car for a 20 minute rest, then drive flat out for another 30 minutes, what's the maximum speed of the car? It's still 140 mph. What was the average speed of the journey? 140 miles / 1.333 hours == 105 mph. That doesn't change the paper specs of the top speed of the car, but describes the work done.

Cpu , Gpu, Audio-Dsp cannot read data with 448 Gbyte/s all at once this is physical not possible, so you have waittimes,stalls between these 3 different Memoryaccess and this have a negative impact of the Overall Performance.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes (although at what part in my description did I imply that they could, having talked at length about time-slices). That doesn't make your maths correct though. It's not possible to calculate impact of different components on the available BW for some other component by simply subtracting partial BW's from the total pool. BW doesn't work that way.

 

[Skaal]

That's an efficiency thing. In the case of my bucket filling example, it'd be the overhead in swapping from one bucket to another. Let's say there's a tap that delivers one litre a minute of water and two people, Mr. CPU and Mrs. GPU, both trying to fill their buckets. As they push and shove each other out the way to get their bucket filled, there are moments when neither is being filled.

Bandwidth is no different a measurement as TFlops. A GPU may be described as 10 teraflops, but in real terms it probably only computes maybe 6 trillion sums a second, and maybe worse with inefficient workloads, and better with other wrkloads - we still describe the part based on its peak capability rather than whatever it happens to achieve in some use cases.

hi i post not frequent here but iam intrested in the tech tough.
so while the bandwith problem like you described are crucial my impression from Cernys Road to PS5 talk was that he and his team realy made a deep dive into GPU strukture and its intrinsic bottlenecks with goal to eliminate those as best as they can.

So if iam right the PS5s GPU are the most effecient on the market right now. In a Way that from all GPUs out there the PS5s comes more close to its paper performance then all else.
And maybe that is the reason why we heard all those "both Systems are similar in power"
Rumors.
maybe a 12Tf conventinal GPU loses somehow through internal deficencys or bottlenecks a part of its Tflop "on the way". And that its "cleaned" performance its more close to lets say 11Tf?

i mean since we are all so happy to use metaphors - its like a power train from a car wich loses hp due to friction until the power reaches the weels..

 

[BRiT]

And maybe that is the reason why we heard all those "both Systems are similar in power"
Rumors.

It's because of 2 fundamental reasons:

1. This is the closest specs to one another the 2 consoles have ever been so they are indeed "similar" just like PS4 and Xbox One were said to be "similar".
2. Pretenders (to being insiders) just making shit up

There is nothing technical that ever suggests that generally the PS5 GPU is more performant than the Series X GPU. Saying otherwise is very akin to all the "3D Discrete GPU" magic sauce wishes of the Xbox One crazies like MrXMedia.

Generally Series X performance will match the paper specs of having at least 18% more GPU with 25% higher memory bandwidth.

The largest unknown is RealTime RayTracing because nothing has been measured on AMD RTRT hardware since it doesn't exist in the PC space yet. It remains to be seen if having less but higher clocked RT Units or having more but slightly lower clocked is better. Paper spec wise, the Series X has the slight advantage here too, if both systems are using the same implementation.

 

[Skaal]

It's because of 2 fundamental reasons:

1. This is the closest specs to one another the 2 consoles have ever been so they are indeed "similar" just like PS4 and Xbox One were said to be "similar".
2. Pretenders (to being insiders) just making shit up

There is nothing technical that ever suggests that generally the PS5 GPU is more performant than the Series X GPU. Saying otherwise is very akin to all the "3D Discrete GPU" magic sauce wishes of the Xbox One crazies like MrXMedia.

full agree on Points 1 & 2..
however, bringing the "Xbox One vs PS4"
situation in the XBOX X vs PS5 talk is not justfied.
Reason being that PS5 will not be that inferior to Xbox X like the Xbox One was to PS4.

That time PS4 had advantages on several levels from its advanced memory to a 40% stronger GPU right down to a true low Level API .
Also its GPU was heavily modified with way more ACUs than even the Desktop Version let alone the Xbox One ...
Xbox One was hopelessly underpowered tp PS4.
Of course that is the Reason none of its Exclusives ever came close in Scale and Graphics to PS4s ..
so theres that.
And then we have the PS5 vs Xbox X Situation wich is entirely different.

Xbox X is ~20% stronger in terms of TF and its Zen2 is slightly higher clocked.
but thats it from the advantages side.

Cerny is no Fool and he knows his tech -
if he decides to increase the I/O throughput by 100times and also invest heavily in GPU modifikation then iam shure he does that because he suspects a major performance plus from it.
And that is no MrXmedia bullshit. It is a known Fact that todays GPUs while getting more efficient with every Gen are still living Fossils in terms of internal structures.
Theres for shure Ways to improve of that, especialy in a closed system enviroment. Cerny and his team are fully commited to that.
The GPUs Cache Scrubbers are a result of it.

And iam not suggesting that PS5 will miraciously be have the advantage over Xbox X .
Only that cernys adjustments will result in a smaller Gap between the 2 than expected.
And that Gap will result in slightly higher dynamic Resolution. Thats about it.

While Loadtimes will be non existent on PS5 and its Sound Engine is on another Level.

So i see a slightly less Powerfull PS5.
I also see a more sophisticated PS5.
And thats not an paradox !

 

[BRiT]

Everything you're talking about no one has said in this technical thread. No one has indicated Cerny is a fool. No one indicated next gen will have as large of a perf difference as One and PS4. The only person bringing that here is you.

Also, as you should know, B3D does not focus on system comparisons because it brings out nothing but trouble.

 

[chris1515]

full agree on Points 1 & 2..
however, bringing the "Xbox One vs PS4"
situation in the XBOX X vs PS5 talk is not justfied.
Reason being that PS5 will not be that inferior to Xbox X like the Xbox One was to PS4.

That time PS4 had advantages on several levels from its advanced memory to a 40% stronger GPU right down to a true low Level API .
Also its GPU was heavily modified with way more ACUs than even the Desktop Version let alone the Xbox One ...
Xbox One was hopelessly underpowered tp PS4.
Of course that is the Reason none of its Exclusives ever came close in Scale and Graphics to PS4s ..
so theres that.
And then we have the PS5 vs Xbox X Situation wich is entirely different.

Xbox X is ~20% stronger in terms of TF and its Zen2 is slightly higher clocked.
but thats it from the advantages side.

Cerny is no Fool and he knows his tech -
if he decides to increase the I/O throughput by 100times and also invest heavily in GPU modifikation then iam shure he does that because he suspects a major performance plus from it.
And that is no MrXmedia bullshit. It is a known Fact that todays GPUs while getting more efficient with every Gen are still living Fossils in terms of internal structures.
Theres for shure Ways to improve of that, especialy in a closed system enviroment. Cerny and his team are fully commited to that.
The GPUs Cache Scrubbers are a result of it.

And iam not suggesting that PS5 will miraciously be have the advantage over Xbox X .
Only that cernys adjustments will result in a smaller Gap between the 2 than expected.
And that Gap will result in slightly higher dynamic Resolution. Thats about it.

While Loadtimes will be non existent on PS5 and its Sound Engine is on another Level.

So i see a slightly less Powerfull PS5.
I also see a more sophisticated PS5.
And thats not an paradox !

I will buy a PS5, I don't know if it will have other features not inside current RDNA2 GPU but for the moment the only things we have is the PS5 is a custom RDNA 2 GPU. The difference is not as big as between PS4 and XB1 or PS4 Pro and XB1X but the XSX is more powerful than the PS5 and this is not a problem.

 

[chris1515]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1257253761489293313

First image of a 2021 games release only on PC, XSX and PS5

 

[PSman1700]

First image of a 2021 games release only on PC, XSX and PS5

A first for images yes, otherwise didn't we see XSX/PS5/PC (games not on current gen) footage already? Godfall, hb2, quantum error etc.
This lord of the rings game doesn't look that impressive i think

 

[chris1515]

A first for images yes, otherwise didn't we see XSX/PS5/PC (games not on current gen) footage already? Godfall, hb2, quantum error etc.
This lord of the rings game doesn't look that impressive i think

Like DF said HB2 is in engine, I wait realtime demo. We have seen Godfall and Hellpoint and crossgen AC Vahalla too. I just say first image of this game and it is next gen only. This is not looking very good but in the interview, they explain they are a very little studio and they will not looks among the best games on PC and next generation consoles.

 

[Karamazov]

there were launch games on PS4/XBO that looked more like higher res PS360 games too.
Don't worry we'll see ammazing things starting this May 7th.

 

[Pinstripe]

there were launch games on PS4/XBO that looked more like higher res PS360 games too.
Don't worry we'll see ammazing things starting this May 7th.

You mean like AC: Valhalla? That looks like a X1/PS4 game with 4K textures and less blur.

I don't think we'll see bona fide Next-gen games prior 2022.

 

[ultragpu]

You mean like AC: Valhalla? That looks like a X1/PS4 game with 4K textures and less blur.

I don't think we'll see bona fide Next-gen games prior 2022.

Why not? We will certainly see AAA budget next gen only games from Sony first party at launch. Microsoft will also show trailers of their first party AAA titles way before 2022.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Why not? We will certainly see AAA budget next gen only games from Sony first party at launch. Microsoft will also show trailers of their first party AAA titles way before 2022.

Microsoft committed to no first-party nextgen exclusive game at launch and I'm sure I saw a more explicit statement several months back committing to two years on this - from the point of that statement. That would have the first ones potentially showing up - at least in marketing, if not actual release - in 2021. I don't think anybody really expects Microsoft and Sony to blindly cling on to 2013-tech indefinitely.

 

[PSman1700]

HB2 is in engine

In engine and realtime. Its not impossible the game will look like or close to the footage shown on a console thats over 12TF.

HB2 could release late 2020/early 2021.
Both sony and ms will focus mostly on cross gen games in the first year though.

 

[Betanumerical]

In engine and realtime. Its not impossible the game will look like or close to the footage shown on a console thats over 12TF.

HB2 could release late 2020/early 2021.
Both sony and ms will focus mostly on cross gen games in the first year though.

I don't remember it being real time. Nor that it even ran on the XSX, im sure the game will look great but I'm not sure it'll look as good as the trailer.

 

[RDGoodla]

Everything you're talking about no one has said in this technical thread. No one has indicated Cerny is a fool. No one indicated next gen will have as large of a perf difference as One and PS4. The only person bringing that here is you.

There are many discussions about gap of performance between these consoles. Such as PS5 has higher clock for GPU parts but xsx has more CUs.

Now do we have any benchmark of the 2 consoles? What is the actual gap of in game performance?

 

[iroboto]

There are many discussions about gap of performance between these consoles. Such as PS5 has higher clock for GPU parts but xsx has more CUs.

Now do we have any benchmark of the 2 consoles now? What is the actual gap of in game performance?

have you ever compared 2080TI vs the rest of the Turing lineup?
Hint: way less clocks, way more cuda cores.

It should give you an idea of benchmarks, as there won't be any benchmarks for consoles.