Cube maxed out???

[Snyder]

DX8 features werent that commonly used during the early 2001/2 days.

Except that even the crappiest games like Shrek wounded up using global shadowing&selfshadowing, normal mapped environments (perhaps characters also I haven't really paid attention that much) etc, but nah, that doesn't mean anything was used since the games didn't have a DX8 sticker and the respective feature list with DX8 references attached to their discs did they?

Erm. Im no professional when it comes to this, but aren't both the shadowing (ok, depends on the method, but both stencil shadows and shadow buffers/textures don't require shaders) and the normal mapping (which is done by DOT3, or am I wrong?) DX7 level?

 

[darkblu]

Was there even a Naomi Soul Calibur? I've never heard of it, however, Dreamcast and Naomi hardware are basically the same, maybe someone mixed the words up. It would have been nice for a Naomi version, but I've never seen it, never heard of it, it wasn't in Gamespy's comparision thing(if it existed it must have bombed or something), and I don't know of any other Namco games on sega hardware...

naomi SC did exist ..unless i imagine all those hours of vs. gameplay infront of the 30" screen of the arcade and no, it definitely didn't bomb, it had quite a success, ergo the DC port.

 

[Fafalada]

Still faf, whats your take on this PS2/GC/XB mazzzxxed out thing?

I think I made myself clear on what I think about maxing out hw before. But as far as the three consoles go I do believe PS2 and XB have quite a number of devs trying to stretch technology in some way or another, while GC outside very few exceptions like F5, does not (particularly 1st party stuff isn't making much towards technical showcases, unlike the other two consoles).

Erm. Im no professional when it comes to this, but aren't both the shadowing (ok, depends on the method, but both stencil shadows and shadow buffers/textures don't require shaders) and the normal mapping (which is done by DOT3, or am I wrong?) DX7 level?

And DOT3 can further be performed without DOT3 hardware, as do the shadow buffers, and further yet you don't need a 3d accelerator at all, since CPU can do the same things and so on and so forth...
... as someone said it here before, all you need is an abacus to do the job just perfectly, and that's if you absolutely insist on using a computer for it that is...
Games graphics isn't DX level anything... it's more like before-semiconductor level...

In case it isn't obvious enough, hw bullet feature points are pretty meaningless if you try to break them down by functionality - the speed of those operations however, is another matter.

 

[Snyder]

Erm. Im no professional when it comes to this, but aren't both the shadowing (ok, depends on the method, but both stencil shadows and shadow buffers/textures don't require shaders) and the normal mapping (which is done by DOT3, or am I wrong?) DX7 level?

And DOT3 can further be performed without DOT3 hardware, as do the shadow buffers, and further yet you don't need a 3d accelerator at all, since CPU can do the same things and so on and so forth...
In case it isn't obvious enough, hw bullet feature points are pretty meaningless if you try to break them down by functionality - the speed of those operations however, is another matter.

I know. But what I wanted to say with my DX analogies is that the NV2A already has dedicated hardware support for both shadow buffers and DOT3 BM, so shouldn't that leave the pixel shaders free to perform some pixel magic wink ? Or would some other bottlenecks kick in before the shaders are used to it's max? Or are the pixel shaders itself the bottleneck?

 

[Fafalada]

You seem to be under impression that shaders are a separate thing from the two mentioned operations - and they aren't.
DOT3 is just one of the pixel shader ops (and lighting equations using it like in Shrek are basically what you call pixel shading).
Similar applies to shadow buffers as well - the 24/32bit value combiner fetch and compare is again part of pixel shader operations.

 

[Fox5]

Was there even a Naomi Soul Calibur? I've never heard of it, however, Dreamcast and Naomi hardware are basically the same, maybe someone mixed the words up. It would have been nice for a Naomi version, but I've never seen it, never heard of it, it wasn't in Gamespy's comparision thing(if it existed it must have bombed or something), and I don't know of any other Namco games on sega hardware...

naomi SC did exist ..unless i imagine all those hours of vs. gameplay infront of the 30" screen of the arcade and no, it definitely didn't bomb, it had quite a success, ergo the DC port.

I'm sorry, I can find no evidence of this, but I can find evidence against it.
http://sega.gamerweb.com/news/0100/57.asp

news

Soul Calibur 2: Naomi Friendly?


Could the fun just be starting with the original Soul Calibur? One thing's for sure, we're dying to find out...

A Japanese print magazine called Amusement Graffiti has listed Namco's rumored Soul Calibur 2 as an official arcade release in their latest issue, according to IGN's Dreamcast page. The game is scheduled to be in arcades sometime this summer, but...here's the big news...it will use Sega's Naomi board, showing the first time that Namco will be using their competitor's equipment directly for an arcade game.

And at gamespy....
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/august03/millennium/day4/index2.shtml

The biggest splash by far was made by the Dreamcast port of Soul Calibur. Much as it had with the early Tekken ports on PlayStation, Namco went above and beyond to take the home port beyond the arcade version. In this case, that meant completely redoing the graphics to take advantage of the powerful DC architecture. The result was the perfect showcase for the system's advanced capabilities, and it certainly didn't hurt that it was one of the most satisfying and accessible 3D fighters ever made. Soul Calibur easily stole the spotlight from Sega's own VF3tb.

It mentions completely rodoing the graphics for dreamcast, the graphics would not have needed to be redone if it was on naomi. Also, the article mentions Soul Calibur coming out on system 12, perhaps your memory just colored the game to be a bit better looking, maybe the screen was bad, maybe system 12 soul calibur wasn't all that bad(from what I remembered, it looked like a software rendered version of soul calibur, graphics were exactly the same but soul calibur on dreamcast looked like it had been put through a psx emulator, and I don't think the arcade version of soul calibur had the curvy straight line problems that psx games often had) but it really seems you're the only one who says there was a naomi version of soul calibur.
Also found this...
http://dextremes.com/news/archive/march99.shtml

In a private meeting, Namco has announced their first Dreamcast project: Soul Calibur. The game is the sequel the popular fighting game, Soul Edge. The conversion is currently 30% complete, and will feature enhancements over the System 12 based arcade version. We are to expect new play modes, and enhanced graphics in the DC version.

Yep, no mention of a port from naomi, but a port from system 12, heck, if soul calibur had been on naomi, it wouldn't have been a surprise to appear on dreamcast, it would have been expected.

http://sega.gamerweb.com/reviews/dreamcast/sc.asp
And this

Graphically, this game puts everything else to shame. It looks far, far better than I thought it would, putting the likes of VF3 in the shade. Arcade Soul Calibur ran at a pathetic frame rate, pathetically low-resolution textures, low-res backgrounds and a low-res display. I could always tell that there were some ideas in there that just weren't being done justice by the Sony technology - for example, the raft sailing through the cave was conceptually great, but looked pitifully crap in the arcade version.

Quite why Namco never worked with superior arcade technology on offer from Sega instead of holding themselves back is beyond me, because it's clear that when they have the technology, their ideas become magic in a showcase title such as this.

Funny, later in this article, it mentions how DOA2's graphics put Soul Calibur's to shame...(the dreamcast version)

 

[Snyder]

You seem to be under impression that shaders are a separate thing from the two mentioned operations - and they aren't.
DOT3 is just one of the pixel shader ops (and lighting equations using it like in Shrek are basically what you call pixel shading).
Similar applies to shadow buffers as well - the 24/32bit value combiner fetch and compare is again part of pixel shader operations.

Oh. I was indeed under the impression DOT3 and shadow buffers are handled by some separate (fixed function) unit. (Edit: At least in the NV2A. I know that you can do both in the shader anyway.) Sorry - my mistake and thanks to clear that up.

 

[darkblu]

I'm sorry, I can find no evidence of this, but I can find evidence against it.

It mentions completely rodoing the graphics for dreamcast, the graphics would not have needed to be redone if it was on naomi. Also, the article mentions Soul Calibur coming out on system 12, perhaps your memory just colored the game to be a bit better looking, maybe the screen was bad, maybe system 12 soul calibur wasn't all that bad (from what I remembered, it looked like a software rendered version of soul calibur, graphics were exactly the same but soul calibur on dreamcast looked like it had been put through a psx emulator, and I don't think the arcade version of soul calibur had the curvy straight line problems that psx games often had) but it really seems you're the only one who says there was a naomi version of soul calibur.

weird, i wasn't able to find any evidences on the web about a naomi version either. now, the arcade i recall having played SC on was definitely not the system 11 - i've seen the system 11 version and it looked very different (if nothing else the system 11 screen was physically smaller). speaking of the screen, the display of that supposedly naomi arcade was indeed in very bad shape, had messed up hue all over the display area (it wasn't a CRT), plus had some problem with the focus, but the texturing seemed very rich so it could not have been the system 11 version. now, the characters did have notably poorer polycounts (compared to the DC), which i remember attributing to art assets advancements done specifically for the DC version. what bothers me, though, is that i can't distinctively recall the make of the arcade machine, there were a couple of naomis nearby (sega rally & that futuristic tennis-like title ) but the SC arcade blurs to me.. maybe you're right, maybe my memories about this arcade machine got affected by those of the surrounding arcades. problem is that arcade hall is no longer functioning so i have no way to go there and check it.

Yep, no mention of a port from naomi, but a port from system 12, heck, if soul calibur had been on naomi, it wouldn't have been a surprise to appear on dreamcast, it would have been expected.

well, for me it was never a surprise becasue the first time i got across this game was on the 1999 (or was it 1998..) E3 where they had an early demo on playable kiosks.

http://sega.gamerweb.com/reviews/dreamcast/sc.asp
And this

Graphically, this game puts everything else to shame. It looks far, far better than I thought it would, putting the likes of VF3 in the shade. Arcade Soul Calibur ran at a pathetic frame rate, pathetically low-resolution textures, low-res backgrounds and a low-res display. I could always tell that there were some ideas in there that just weren't being done justice by the Sony technology - for example, the raft sailing through the cave was conceptually great, but looked pitifully crap in the arcade version.

Quite why Namco never worked with superior arcade technology on offer from Sega instead of holding themselves back is beyond me, because it's clear that when they have the technology, their ideas become magic in a showcase title such as this.

Funny, later in this article, it mentions how DOA2's graphics put Soul Calibur's to shame...(the dreamcast version)

hmm. that dubious version i recall looked definitely way better than the original system11 Soul Edge (which i recall looking exactly as everybody else recalls it to look - low res and point-sampled, rather dull textures)

 

[aneep]

i'm pretty sure that the SC that i saw in the arcades here are Naomi based as well

definitely a step up from a PSX based board

-aneep-

 

[Fox5]

System 12 wasn't that bad loooking. I remember the textures being normal and the display semi crisp, just point sampled. It had like 12x the amount of memory of psx.(I think) I also think it was used for time crisis 2 or 3, tekken 3, and maybe tekken tag.

 

[Reznor007]

System 12 wasn't that bad loooking. I remember the textures being normal and the display semi crisp, just point sampled. It had like 12x the amount of memory of psx.(I think) I also think it was used for time crisis 2 or 3, tekken 3, and maybe tekken tag.

Sys12 wasn't near that much better. It had about 4MB RAM/4MB VRAM. Tekken3 and the first version of Tekken Tag were Sys12(so was Erhgeiz ). Time Crisis 2 was System 23, which was more powerful. Time Crisis 3 is System 246(PS2).

 

[wazoo]

SC in the arcades was not Naomi.

http://www.system16.com/namco/hrdw_system12_page2.html

 

[Fox5]

System 12 wasn't that bad loooking. I remember the textures being normal and the display semi crisp, just point sampled. It had like 12x the amount of memory of psx.(I think) I also think it was used for time crisis 2 or 3, tekken 3, and maybe tekken tag.

Sys12 wasn't near that much better. It had about 4MB RAM/4MB VRAM. Tekken3 and the first version of Tekken Tag were Sys12(so was Erhgeiz ). Time Crisis 2 was System 23, which was more powerful. Time Crisis 3 is System 246(PS2).

But it was still much better, right? From the specs on that page posted, it looked like it had a different processor, about a 50% increase in clock speed, I think a faster bus and different sound chip, more ram, can do more polygons with effects and higher res, it's almost like the best of saturn and psx combined to make.....a computer doing software rendering at high res! BTW, the screenshots don't look that bad, certainly far above psx on all the games.

BTW, Erhgeiz was an arcade game? Didn't it have an RPG mode? Whatever....

 

[Reznor007]

The specs for Sys12 on System16.com are actually wrong. That's what it was thought to be, however, now that the system has been emulated(in a WIP emulator) it is known that the only real difference is the RAM and sound chip. The screenshots may also be from the emulator(with bilinear filtering enabled). The Soul Calibur shots are from the DC version, but that's mentioned. The Tekken Tag shot might be the System246 version of the game.

Ehrgeiz on PS1 was a port of the System12 version. The main game was the fighting game, but the console port had an extra RPG mode.