Cross platform development and choice of 'Lead system' *Spinoff*

[djskribbles]

We've just compared the Burnout Paradise demo on PS3 and X360 using a 1080p high quality projector with a 100" screen and HDMI... Very, very nice work. Smooth framerates, lots of detail, nice shaders and so on.
The only difference we've spotted is that colors and contrast is a lot better on the 360, but it's a bit more blury thanks to the lack of AF on the textures. I've been able to tell which one was which on a blind test, but I had to look quite hard for the difference

this leads me to believe your display is not calibrated correctly for the PS3. if you look at the comparison shots posted at gamersyde, the colors/contrast are identical. the reflections on the vehicles are more pronounced on the PS3 version. but other than that, this is probably the closest multiplatform game released so far.

i think thats why Sony added the RGB full/limited setting... it pretty much makes things look a lot better for those who don't calibrate their displays (majority of PS3 owners).

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I'll ask my friend about the projector stuff, but I'm quite sure it's properly calibrated - it's a demo display in an AV shop. He's probably going to say that if it works well with everything else then it should work with the PS3 as well...

 

[SonComet]

I'll ask my friend about the projector stuff, but I'm quite sure it's properly calibrated - it's a demo display in an AV shop. He's probably going to say that if it works well with everything else then it should work with the PS3 as well...

I'm pretty sure the PS3 outputs 2.2 gamma, while the 360 outputs something in the area of 2.6 (or so I've read on other forums). When I calibrate my display to 2.2 gamma (albeit with a lowly colorvision spyder2pro), my ps3 looks perfect on it while my 360 crushes black. While this does give the 360 a more saturated look it comes at the expense of visibility in darker areas of games. My PS3 games don't look washed out at all, and I never have any trouble in dark areas of games. I found that the easy fix is just raising my brightness a little while playing 360 games and lowering it back again for everything else (dvd, blu-ray, computer, etc).

 

[V3]

He's probably going to say that if it works well with everything else then it should work with the PS3 as well...

That's not true and I doubt it works well with everything else. I bet you can tweak it with each different things to get the best result.

 

[mister slim]

I'll ask my friend about the projector stuff, but I'm quite sure it's properly calibrated - it's a demo display in an AV shop. He's probably going to say that if it works well with everything else then it should work with the PS3 as well...

I'd also recommend trying both RGB settings on the PS3. After switching to Full colors are much improved on my TV.

 

[djskribbles]

I'd also recommend trying both RGB settings on the PS3. After switching to Full colors are much improved on my TV.

thats because RGB full pretty much lowers brightness a few notches, making colors more saturated, blacks more black and overall, the image has more contrast. again, i think Sony added this for a quick way to "calibrate" your display for the PS3. if it looks washed out, switch to RGB full. for those that know, keep it on limited and calibrate using a home theater setup disc.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Again, his projector has been calibrated, it looks perfectly fine from every other source; the problem is with the PS3 only.

 

[ErnstH]

Again, his projector has been calibrated, it looks perfectly fine from every other source; the problem is with the PS3 only.

Well, in that case the problem lies clearly with every other source..

 

[Arwin]

thats because RGB full pretty much lowers brightness a few notches, making colors more saturated, blacks more black and overall, the image has more contrast. again, i think Sony added this for a quick way to "calibrate" your display for the PS3. if it looks washed out, switch to RGB full. for those that know, keep it on limited and calibrate using a home theater setup disc.

For me, it increases the range of colors, not just decreases the brightness. Odd that.

 

[-tkf-]

Again, his projector has been calibrated, it looks perfectly fine from every other source; the problem is with the PS3 only.

He could calibrate his Projector all he wants, if the output from the PS3 isn´t set to FULL it will still look like crap.

 

[szymku]

Please tell me again - what's the problem with switching RGB full range to on?
It's one of options in the device (PS3) and you should use it if it's necessary

 

[nintenho]

For example, what if instead of releasing a new Need for Speed every year, EA released one every two or three years, but cut the price two or three times (once to $35 and once to $20) and advertised the price drop? Perhaps added a downloadable course at the same time?

well the benefit of that is that you get a lot more original games from EA I'd assume. I mean, they have to have those thousands of employees working on something and cutting out a yearly franchise would help. but it wouldn't make sense since I assume it takes more time/money to make an original game than to make a sequel. also consider that many of these yearly franchises are huge cash cows that fans buy every year. especially since EA cuts off the servers 2 years after release (that's why NFS and sports games drop in price so fast). I mean, EA and other companies know that they need to constantly push out games in order to get ANY shelf space at all. plus you're talking about EA, they developed a huge fanbase willing to rebuy games of the same franchise every year.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

He could calibrate his Projector all he wants, if the output from the PS3 isn´t set to FULL it will still look like crap.

Yeah, now I realize that too. I wonder if it's in the manual though... and if anyone actually reads the manual
Sony should update the firmware to take care of this issue on its own.

 

[novcze]

for those that know, keep it on limited and calibrate using a home theater setup disc.

Yep, very true

There are 3 kinds of HDTV (from PS3 aspect)
1. Standard HDTV for AV environment, expecting RGB limited on HDMI, shift to Full RGB and you get black crush or wrong color decoding / gamma tracking
2. HDTV that can take advantage of Full RGB (increased contrast ratio) but all color calibration is done for AV environment (movie picture mode, etc.), so you still get wrong color decoding and gamma tracking
3. Modern HDTV that have explicit support for Full RGB color space (mainly for PC compatibility)

Please note: you can`t just switch between Full RGB and Limited RGB, you MUST recalibrate your display to new black level everytime you make change (if your TV recognize rgb value below 16 at all)

There is easy way to check color reproduction:

1. first calibrate your HDTV with PS3 set on limited RGB with pictures from this zip file.
Your main focus is blacktest, whitetest and colorbands. More on http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

2. then take few photos from your archive of nature scene or whatever real scenery and display it simultaneously on HDTV+PS3 and PC+monitor (white temperature on both displays approx. same), if they look same (colors) is everything OK

3. Set you PS3 to Full RGB and recalibrate to new black level, use same test pictures, as in point 1.

4. display same natural scenery photos on HDTV+PS3 and PC+monitor, if colors are not same and have different tint, your TV don`t support Full RGB color space and RGB limited is way to go

Then is best thing set BD/DVD output format to RGB (limited or full, what works best for your HDTV) and let PS3 to do all format conversion. (this is more gamer centric approach)


excuse my poor english

 

[RadioFr33Europe]

We've just compared the Burnout Paradise demo on PS3 and X360 using a 1080p high quality projector with a 100" screen and HDMI... Very, very nice work. Smooth framerates, lots of detail, nice shaders and so on.
The only difference we've spotted is that colors and contrast is a lot better on the 360, but it's a bit more blury thanks to the lack of AF on the textures. I've been able to tell which one was which on a blind test, but I had to look quite hard for the difference .

Uncheck 720p on the PS3 (tell it you just want 1080p) and view the comparison again.

 

[RadioFr33Europe]

Yeah, now I realize that too. I wonder if it's in the manual though... and if anyone actually reads the manual
Sony should update the firmware to take care of this issue on its own.

IIRC, the Full Range option was added *after* the manual was published.

Yes, I did read my PS3 manual.

 

[Mr Deap]

I just felt like to give the link of the podcast about Technical Team discusscussion of the misconceptions about mutli-platform development and what it means to have a lead platform.

http://www.criteriongames.com/podcast/

I've been reading a lot left & right, but listening to the whole podcast, you clearly now understand how come they began with the PS3 as the lead platform.

 

[tha_con]

Just bumping this thread since another was closed.

I just want to ask what you all think "Lead Platform" means, to you personally, and what results should come of "lead platform". I think too many folks have some misconceptions of what "lead platform" really means.

Discuss

 

[makattack]

Just bumping this thread since another was closed.

I just want to ask what you all think "Lead Platform" means, to you personally, and what results should come of "lead platform". I think too many folks have some misconceptions of what "lead platform" really means.

Discuss

To me, there are multiple meanings that essentially break down to either an engineering point of view or a marketing POV.

For an engineer: lead platform is the primary target that all cross compilation/testing/debugging occurs on.

For a business analyst/marketing department: lead platform is the company(ies) that you have fiduciary obligations with. Could be direct financing, collaborative marketing relationships, or some other business relationship where you work more closely with one platform provider than another.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree with makattack, though in ordinary discussion 'lead platform' is used to mean the platform around which development is focussed, with other platforms being internal 'ports' of that game. Thus the majority of effects, assets, algorithms, would be designed around the lead platform and it should benefit. Thoguh of course, a well balanced development would have everything more or less equal for various reasons.

If a company says 'we lead on Platform X' then I expect if any platform shows an advantage, it to be Platform X.