I may have been abrasive, but I made a point. You though, just made a generic snarky remark, and did not adres the issue at hand.
Coronavirus Pandemic (COVID-19) (SARS-CoV-2) [2020]
- Thread starter RDGoodla
- Start date
I may have been abrasive, but I made a point. You though, just made a generic snarky remark, and did not adres the issue at hand.
You clearly lack an understanding of epidemiology and vaccines and continue to push libertarian talking points. You made an ill informed point which had already been debunked.
Vaccines are not 100% effective. Because of the way viruses spread, people who choose to not get vaccinated increase the risk for everyone, even the vaccinated. There are large groups of people who cannot get vaccinated (everyone under 12) or have compromised immune systems so the vaccines do not work well for them. The longer the virus is around the more the virus mutates with possibly much more deadly and contagious strains. Everyone who can get vaccinated needs to do so to prevent these things from happening.
I was commenting on the back to school issue.
The apocaliptic argument was running in circles that lacked internal consistency. It was something like:
Kids cant go back to school because its dangerous to them
-Scientists are saying it ist.
It's propaganda!!!!
-So now you do believe in conspiracies?
Well they trasmit to others
-Other kids?
No old people!
-But old people are vaccinated.
But the vaccine does not work!
-Oh, they don't now?
By the way, I do think the vaccines work as advertised, its you guys that I'm starting to belive don't.
Lets also not forget, we will never live in a risk-free world, nor have we ever. Everthing is a tradeoff between different dangers with different probabilities. It feels like you guys got stuck in certain rules of thumb that held true months ago, but that are in dire need fot re-calculation after millions of people have already developed the damn imunity.
Also, the fear of mutation is legit, and lets remind ourselves that it still exists even with near perfect vaccination since the current vaccines still allow contagion and transmission. I understand that a vaccinated person will certainly shed less virus than a a unvaccinated person, but still, another reminder of how much more fuzzy everything is than some like to believe.
There are risks, and there are ways to mitigate those risks. The vaccines are a proven method of mitigation.
Imagine everyone is a chain with 100 links. Throw 100 of those chains on the floor in front of you. There will be many points of contact between those chains allowing paths to most of the other chains.
Now remove 90 links from chains for every vaccinated person. Many of those points of contact will be removed. If you remove 90 links from enough chains you will have very few points of contact and even those that still exist will be isolated from most of the group. If the groups are small enough the virus can be isolated easily and spread will stop.
We have mostly eliminated many deadly diseases with widespread vaccination, but we didn't have to deal with facebook groups when polio and smallpox were running around. So yes we can eliminate covid, but as long as people refuse to vaccinate we won't and it will be around killing your grandchildren because people want their freedom to infect others.
Imagine everyone is a chain with 100 links. Throw 100 of those chains on the floor in front of you. There will be many points of contact between those chains allowing paths to most of the other chains.
Now remove 90 links from chains for every vaccinated person. Many of those points of contact will be removed. If you remove 90 links from enough chains you will have very few points of contact and even those that still exist will be isolated from most of the group. If the groups are small enough the virus can be isolated easily and spread will stop.
We have mostly eliminated many deadly diseases with widespread vaccination, but we didn't have to deal with facebook groups when polio and smallpox were running around. So yes we can eliminate covid, but as long as people refuse to vaccinate we won't and it will be around killing your grandchildren because people want their freedom to infect others.
digitalwanderer
Legend
I can't decide if you're genuinely this ignorant or you're trying hard to be, either way your logic/facts are so bogus that I'm not gonna waste time arguing you about them. I'm just going to say you're wrong, please learn.
Seems evasive.
Sorry who said that ?
I'm not arguing against vaccines. I'm arguing against behaving as if most people in risk groups haven't already taken them.
My post the other day wasn't conspiracy, just pointing out that the UK health authorities are doing the exact opposite as their counterparts in other developed countries as regards removing all protections and mitigations in schools.
The people making these decisions aren't ignorant or naive, they know what they are doing and know that much of the 'evidence' for safety they are pushing is, well, built on sand, at best. Public health professionals in other countries are baffled at what is being planned over here. Here's a clear and concise article which shows how our policy differs to that of other countries:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/2...-a-gaping-hole-in-the-english-covid-strategy/
For me, the picking and sampling of the data used to justify the policy is simply dishonest. In the article above, the ONS schools survey is mentioned which pointed out that rates in schools weren't any worse in June than November and were low at that point. However, this ignored the fact that peaks came in December and July when they were multiples higher - and huge numbers of kids were taken out of school in July due to isolation of classes and year groups. My wife's secondary school had 2 year groups home at the same point in July due to outbreaks. That kept the spread in check. They also continued to require kids to wear masks in the corridors last term.
Most of the 'we have to live with it crowd' probably don't have two young children in school and nursery and a wife surrounded by unvaccinated and unmasked teenagers all day. We're both vaccinated so should be OK regardless, but the few protections against infection for my children which were in place are no longer there.
I suspect that, when internal government documents are released decades in the future, we'll discover this was a deliberate plan. Bear in mind that Sunetra Gupta, of GBD 'fame' was meeting government ministers late in 2020 so I'd imagine there are a good number of fellow travellers in our government at present.
The people making these decisions aren't ignorant or naive, they know what they are doing and know that much of the 'evidence' for safety they are pushing is, well, built on sand, at best. Public health professionals in other countries are baffled at what is being planned over here. Here's a clear and concise article which shows how our policy differs to that of other countries:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/2...-a-gaping-hole-in-the-english-covid-strategy/
For me, the picking and sampling of the data used to justify the policy is simply dishonest. In the article above, the ONS schools survey is mentioned which pointed out that rates in schools weren't any worse in June than November and were low at that point. However, this ignored the fact that peaks came in December and July when they were multiples higher - and huge numbers of kids were taken out of school in July due to isolation of classes and year groups. My wife's secondary school had 2 year groups home at the same point in July due to outbreaks. That kept the spread in check. They also continued to require kids to wear masks in the corridors last term.
Most of the 'we have to live with it crowd' probably don't have two young children in school and nursery and a wife surrounded by unvaccinated and unmasked teenagers all day. We're both vaccinated so should be OK regardless, but the few protections against infection for my children which were in place are no longer there.
I suspect that, when internal government documents are released decades in the future, we'll discover this was a deliberate plan. Bear in mind that Sunetra Gupta, of GBD 'fame' was meeting government ministers late in 2020 so I'd imagine there are a good number of fellow travellers in our government at present.
I do not claim to be most people but I am in the state you described. I am also surrounded by unmasked 20-something people all day which might be worse than teenagers. I am probably also in the 'we have to live with it crowd' (after everyone is given an opportunity to be vaccinated of course).
digitalwanderer
Legend
I'll simplify; you're being a moron saying stupid things that are false to try and advance your own alternative interpretation of reality.
Got it?
Instead of calling people "moron" maybe you could try to explain why they are wrong and what they are saying that is false?
digitalwanderer
Legend
I've already tried that repeatedly and failed to get through to them, so I had to simplify it.
Milk does make some valid points
Some of the 'cdc' stuff said has been inconsistent, eg early on with masks they made the mistake even though they knew they obviously worked but supply was limited so they downplayed the importance of masks, they should of been honest and said yes masks work but please dont hoard them as we need them for hospital staff. This is different than the scientific consensus/recommendations changing because of new data
This creates distrust, there was also a lot of guidelines that backfired in the realworld. eg middle of the last year here, you had to always have a mask on outdoors in the woods even if theres noone around you, where the risk of transmission is near zero (certainly magnitudes less risky than wearing a mask in a building with other ppl, i.e. doing something more dangerous was allowed but doing something safe was disallowed). I remember last year me and my gf walking out in the woods (literally aint seen anyone for a couple of hours) then all of a sudden this policecar was coming down this dirt road, we had to scramble around looking for a mask
.
Don't do stuff that backfires, I see this all the time with roadworks, you'll see a sign drive 50km/hr for 1km or so, so you slow down for 2 minutes and then you finally see the 'roadworks' and its something minor not even on the road and you go what the fuck, so what happens is after a while a lot of ppl start to distrust the roadwork signs and a fair percentage of ppl ignore them. The problem is when there is some roadworks where you should really slowdown to 50km/hr these ppl are prolly still going 100km/hr so they slam on their brakes. Make your rules for the realworld not for a world populated with robots.
Looking at the data of infections/deaths, its obvious vaccines work, we should be trying to get as many ppl as possible vaccinated, now is the dangerous time when 60-70% are vaccinated that stronger mutations will occur (more dangerous than 0% vaccinated), it needs to be ~90% or whatever the herd number is, we need to get this last few % ASAP before stronger variations occur and then we are back at square one and we are still wearing masks in 2025
carrot and stick. Sure you can't force ppl by gunpoint but
carrots - eg free public transport for 6months, 6 month subscription to netflix, grocery goody bag 1 a month for 6 months (choose one)
sticks - make anyone who refuses, sign a paper saying they have to pay their own medical costs if they get sick (even if they dont sign it the rules apply, just like I didnt sign a paper stating I agree to go to jail if I murder someone, so the paper is just something concrete to make the person go, oh fuck maybe I should get vaccinated)
Some of the 'cdc' stuff said has been inconsistent, eg early on with masks they made the mistake even though they knew they obviously worked but supply was limited so they downplayed the importance of masks, they should of been honest and said yes masks work but please dont hoard them as we need them for hospital staff. This is different than the scientific consensus/recommendations changing because of new data
This creates distrust, there was also a lot of guidelines that backfired in the realworld. eg middle of the last year here, you had to always have a mask on outdoors in the woods even if theres noone around you, where the risk of transmission is near zero (certainly magnitudes less risky than wearing a mask in a building with other ppl, i.e. doing something more dangerous was allowed but doing something safe was disallowed). I remember last year me and my gf walking out in the woods (literally aint seen anyone for a couple of hours) then all of a sudden this policecar was coming down this dirt road, we had to scramble around looking for a mask
.Don't do stuff that backfires, I see this all the time with roadworks, you'll see a sign drive 50km/hr for 1km or so, so you slow down for 2 minutes and then you finally see the 'roadworks' and its something minor not even on the road and you go what the fuck, so what happens is after a while a lot of ppl start to distrust the roadwork signs and a fair percentage of ppl ignore them. The problem is when there is some roadworks where you should really slowdown to 50km/hr these ppl are prolly still going 100km/hr so they slam on their brakes. Make your rules for the realworld not for a world populated with robots.
Looking at the data of infections/deaths, its obvious vaccines work, we should be trying to get as many ppl as possible vaccinated, now is the dangerous time when 60-70% are vaccinated that stronger mutations will occur (more dangerous than 0% vaccinated), it needs to be ~90% or whatever the herd number is, we need to get this last few % ASAP before stronger variations occur and then we are back at square one and we are still wearing masks in 2025
carrot and stick. Sure you can't force ppl by gunpoint but
carrots - eg free public transport for 6months, 6 month subscription to netflix, grocery goody bag 1 a month for 6 months (choose one)
sticks - make anyone who refuses, sign a paper saying they have to pay their own medical costs if they get sick (even if they dont sign it the rules apply, just like I didnt sign a paper stating I agree to go to jail if I murder someone, so the paper is just something concrete to make the person go, oh fuck maybe I should get vaccinated)
You've barely done that whatsoever. You jumped straight into name-calling, all the while posing as morally superior.
I honestly don't claim to have the proper answers for covid policy. They are extremely complex problems with multi-faceted unexpected consequences at every corner you look.
They are not merely a medical/epidemiology problem. We are discussing ethics, economy, human psychology, philosophy, social priorities, child development...
For every decision that my do some good in one area, there are negative consequences elsewhere. There is not perfect solution in the real world, only trade-offs.
The only thing I now for sure, is whoever talks as if they "know" what we should all be doing, with any degree of certainty, is being arrogant and foolish, and grossly underestimating the complexity of all the issues surrounding covid, and the ocean of unforseen consequeces surrounding every attempt of strong-arming social engineering in history. And for sure, whoever is doing that is absolutely in no position to be calling others "morons"
It's easy, but misguided.
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digitalwanderer
Legend
You're advocating policies that are known to help spread the pandemic. That's ignorant, simple.
I'm quite through wasting my time with you, you ain't worth anymore time in my opinion.
I have not avocated for any policy. I've played devil's avocate on the legitimacy certain positions which are less accepted, but without ever saying they are necessarily correct or incorrect. I've also pointed out valid concerns that I feel are often ignored in certain overly-simplistic rationalizations.
But I haven't ever said this or that policy is the one anyone should go with, because I honestly don't know. I have no idea, and nobody has, the difference is some accept that with some humility, and other bang their chest on their false certainties.
Your vision is being clouded by self-righteous activism.
Corine GeurtsvanKessel auf Twitter: "we have studied the ability to culture SARS CoV-2 from swabs, and compared primary infections with vaccine break through infections. Virus culture can be regarded as a model for infectivity. Interesting to see that in break through infections viral loads increased up to 3 days https://t.co/Kqj9Fif3Zp" / Twitter
Eric Topol auf Twitter: "Important work/finding by @Corine_GvK and @ErasmusMC team. Breakthrough (nearly all Delta) infections in healthcare workers had less viral culture positivity than primary infections despite similar Ct, viral load. Documents another benefit of vaccination: less infectious. Short" / Twitter
Nice!
Eric Topol auf Twitter: "Important work/finding by @Corine_GvK and @ErasmusMC team. Breakthrough (nearly all Delta) infections in healthcare workers had less viral culture positivity than primary infections despite similar Ct, viral load. Documents another benefit of vaccination: less infectious. Short" / Twitter
Nice!
I disagree due to the fact that many vaccinated whose immune system didnt build enough protection, are roaming around less careful thinking they cant spread the virus or that they wont get ill seriously just because they got the shot.
How is this opposing the claim "people who choose to not get vaccinated increase the risk for everyone"?