Controversial this: ATI & retail

[Smurfie]

If the price of the X800XL is good in the USA, good for you. The problem is for the rest of us outside of the USA, who are trying to buy the X800XL and also trying to justify the price difference. You see, what is a $50 difference in the USA, can be a $200 dollar difference in Singapore, or who knows how much of a difference in Europe. Currency, shipping, handling, tax, etc charges come into play and the pricing difference can become huge.

Right now, I can tell you this, the 6600GT is the best value in many parts of the world. If you can even find a X800XL, it's still a good tidy sum more expensive than the 6600GT.

 

[Moloch]

If the price of the X800XL is good in the USA, good for you. The problem is for the rest of us outside of the USA, who are trying to buy the X800XL and also trying to justify the price difference. You see, what is a $50 difference in the USA, can be a $200 dollar difference in Singapore, or who knows how much of a difference in Europe. Currency, shipping, handling, tax, etc charges come into play and the pricing difference can become huge.

Right now, I can tell you this, the 6600GT is the best value in many parts of the world. If you can even find a X800XL, it's still a good tidy sum more expensive than the 6600GT.

True, but of course it's more than than the 6600GT, it's much faster!
The X800 vanilla compares to the 6600GT/ 6800 vanilla.
The X700 pro is on the par with the 6600GT in some games.

 

[PatrickL]

Smurfie why do you insist about X800XL not in stock? We can find all sort of X80XL in stock in France including the agp one for 319 € including VAT at 19,6%.

Your local market is maybe strange but it is not a general rule.

 

[Smurfie]

I'm not insisting the X800XL is not in stock. Please read my post properly. What I am saying is, the X800XL is in stock, but is not at a small difference from the 6600GT or X700Pro. The X800XL is at an upper class of its own, and cannot be compared in value with the 6600GT in this part of the world.

 

[Smurfie]

Here's some pricings from the stores in Singapore. I only listed those where there are actual cards available that you can walk out of the store with.

AGP
Sapphire X800XL $669
Sapphire X800Pro $739
GeXCube X800Pro $729
PowerColor X800XT $895
PowerColor X800XTPE $995
Pixelview 6600GT $335
XFX 6600GT $385
XFX 6800GT $765
Leadtek 6800LE $405
Leadtek 6800 $538
Leadtek 6800GT $735
Elsa 6800GT $735
Leadtek 6800Ultra $998
Elsa 6800Ultra $989
BFG 6800Ultra $1059

PCI-E
Asus 6600GT $415
XFX 6600GT $429
BFG 6800GT $788
Leadtek 6800GT $759
MSI 6800GT $775
XFX 6800GT $769
XFX 6800Ultra $1099
PowerColor X800XL $659
PowerColor X800XT $888
PowerColor X850XT $979
Sapphire X700Pro $375
Sapphire X850Pro $789
Asus X600XT $373

 

[digitalwanderer]

Smurfie, are those prices in US dollars?!?

 

[PatrickL]

Well the X800 XL being cheaper than 6800 GT with very close performance, it seems at the right price point to me.

 

[Smurfie]

In Singapore dollars, which is about 0.63 that of the US dollar.

 

[whql]

If you take the point of view of price/performance then the x800xl looks about as good as the 6600gt.

 

[ANova]

I'm not insisting the X800XL is not in stock. Please read my post properly. What I am saying is, the X800XL is in stock, but is not at a small difference from the 6600GT or X700Pro. The X800XL is at an upper class of its own, and cannot be compared in value with the 6600GT in this part of the world.

Who was comparing the 6600 GT to the X800 XL? I was comparing the vanilla X800 to that of the 6600 GT.

 

[Guden Oden]

Adding my two cents to this cat fight, I must say I can't tell the least bit difference IQ-wise between ATi and NV. I *think* I can see some slight AA advantage for ATi in heavily zoomed-in shots, but that might well be wishful thinking on my part.

My personal litmus test being distant power lines in HL2, look just fine on either card. I call their IQ for all intents and purposes equal.

As for drivers, well, I personally find monthly updates more of an annoyance than anything else. The day it's possible to update video drivers without having to reboot a single time then I'll agree a monthly download of 25-ish megs isn't that bad, but until then...GAAAHHH!

 

[OpenGL guy]

As for drivers, well, I personally find monthly updates more of an annoyance than anything else. The day it's possible to update video drivers without having to reboot a single time then I'll agree a monthly download of 25-ish megs isn't that bad, but until then...GAAAHHH!

How can it be an annoyance? If you choose to install a new driver, then the one to blame for any annoyance is yourself

If you have some problem, upgrade, if not stick with what works.

 

[IgnorancePersonified]

I'd love to see the day a "web update" feature allows for 'bits' like replacement of needed driver files only.

 

[OpenGL guy]

I'd love to see the day a "web update" feature allows for 'bits' like replacement of needed driver files only.

Not really possible as there are interdependancies between different files.

 

[WaltC]

I'd love to see the day a "web update" feature allows for 'bits' like replacement of needed driver files only.

I'd rather see everybody on broadband...

 

[Fox5]

Just to go back a bit, I have a 6600GT and I must say my old 9700 Pro had better AA image quality.

I found this a tad disappointing but the offset is that I can turn AA on in more games than I could before (but this is also down to the fact I have a more powerful system all round too).

I went from a 9700 pro to a 6600gt and can tell no difference in image quality, but I also have an LCD so I don't have to worry about crap ramdacs.
The AA might be worse on the 6600gt though. Oh wait, you only mentioned the AA.
I got the 6600gt because the benchmarks showed it as consistently better than anything ati had in the price range, but for some reason the water and other effects in halflife 2 kill the framerate, all of a sudden my framerate will just like drop in half.
I also think I actually might get worse AA performance with the 6600gt.(which could make sense due to the lower memory bnadwidth)

I've found that ati cards often had problems with "The Way It's Meant to be Played" games, while nvidia cards have no problems.

BTW, I played the riddick demo, and I'm just wondering if the soft shadows enabled with SM3.0(or was it SM2.0++?) really needed SM3.0 and the huge framerate decrease caused by it? From the description, it just sounded like SM3.0 made the shadows really high resolution or multi sampled or something, but games have done soft shadows without even sm2.0.

Oh, and doesn't ati generally equip its cards with faster memory than nvidia?(perhaps they need it more?)

 

[CMAN]

I went from the 9700 Pro to the 6800 GT. Quality wise they are very similar. The AA is slightly better with the 9700 Pro (but not much IMHO). There is also more texturing aliasing with the 6800 GT, but only in certain instances do I even notice it. I've see the X800 XT's in action in three Dell XPS systems, and was not impressed enough to say WOW that is a whole bunch better than the 6800 GT. I also do not mind the driver updates from Nvidia. Nor do I mind upgrading all the time with ATI. But the updates were not necessary in the frequency ATI puts them out because I didn't have many problems with my 9700 Pro (I hear it was different with other cards though). Likewise, I haven't had many problems with my 6800 GT either. So the driver upgrades is mostly just an experience for me to feel "geekier".

When I upgrade again due to getting a PCI Express system, I'm going to look at both companies and decide then. Neither is overlly better in my opinion and price will probably play the biggest factor.

 

[CarstenB]

I don't understand the complaining about monthly driver updates. If you are not experiencing any problems there is no real reason to update your drivers even if a new set is available. On the other hand if you do have trouble you know there will be new drivers out once a month, thus increasing the likelihood that your problem will be resolved in a timely fashion.

 

[JoshMST]

A couple of things I thought I would chime in on...

Did you notice the increased frequency as of late with official NVIDIA drivers? I think that NVIDIA has finally taken the hint from OEMs/Reviewers/customers and are starting to take official driver releases a lot more seriously. In the past month there has been the official WHQL 71.84, and just last week we see the WHQL candidate 71.89. Not a huge jump by any means, but no less than what ATI typically does month to month with their Catalyst drivers. I certainly hope that NVIDIA will continue this, and that this wasn't a one-off type of instance.

Image quality... ack. Yes, ATI's AA at the official levels are nicer than NVIDIA's, but the difference is not as glaring as it once was. The 6x00's AA at 4X was improved by doing the rotated grid thing, and while it is not "gamma corrected" I would say that the quality differences are not that huge. 8XS looks very nice to me, and I can use that in quite a few games (Quake 3, Call of Duty, Morrowind, etc.). Yes, it cannot be run in games like HL2 or Doom 3 due to the massive performance hit, but for many older games it works just fine.

16X... I am testing a 6800 GT SLI setup, and I can attest that 16X works fine in many games. Running Morrowind at 1024x768 with 16X AA is a buttery smooth experience, and the visuals are stunning. Better than anything I have ever seen before (including ATI's 6X AA). 16 stinkin samples per pixel is very impressive. Again, it doesn't work very well in many of the latest titles, but it sure makes the older stuff look great!

NVIDIA's cash cow right now is the 6600 and 6200 series. Those products are selling like hot cakes, and in each instance they are outperforming the ATI part at that price point. Sure, the X800 will outperform a 6600 GT, but it isn't exactly at the same price point (usually $50 US more expensive). Also, ATI hasn't refreshed their AGP midrange lineup, and so far we haven't really seen any X700's being paired with Rialto. This is an area where NVIDIA is cleaning house. The 6600 GT AGP is the upgrader's card of choice at the moment. A lot of people view the 9800 series as "old" and the 6600's are nice, shiny, and new.

NVIDIA hasn't made many mistakes in the past year, and I get the impression that ATI got a little complacent. Yes, they were the leader into the PCI-E market, but with the 6200/6600 series that lead is taking a big hit. I certainly don't think ATI will sit around for long, and they could have some really impressive leads over NVIDIA if they transition to 90 nm in an effective way. I guess we shall see.

I do love the competition though!

 

[Tahir2]

I can say that the 6200 and their Turbo Cache variants are not selling in the retail segment. This is likely due to the fact that PCI-E is more of an enthusiast upgrade and anyone getting a system with PCI-E from an OEM will not be upgrading their gfx card so soon. The enthusiast building a system from scratch does not even think of the 6200 (or X300) as an option for gfx.

WRT AA and the comparison between the 9700 Pro vs the 6600GT I too have an LCD display on DVI and the AA is the only let down but again it is slight. I am experimenting with 2xQ at the moment.