Controversial this: ATI & retail

[Sandwich]

I agree about the X800XL. It's good value for money.
The new XL does illustrate how bad the old X800Pro and the new X850Pro look though. With the XL ATI is killing off their Pro sales.

In the past months the Pro hasn't been serious competition for the 6800GT.

I'm not very excited about the vanilla X800. Practicly everywhere if you open a mag or browse an online review the 6600GT is crowned best value for money and fastest card in the 150-200 segment and it's hard to argue with that.
X600XT vs 6600 is no contest for the GF either

 

[jvd]

This is from radar

Serveral people in this thread have claimed that ATi still has better image quality than nVidia, especially in regards to antialiasing.

The GeForce6 series has many antialiasing modes at its disposal. One of them is 16xS, and it can be activated through the nHancer profile editor.
http://www.nhancer.com/
You can also use rivatuner, but, enhancer is more elegant since you can set your AA options on a game by gaem basis, something you can't acheive with RivaRtuner.

16xS comprises 4x RGMS MSAA and 2x2 SSAA combined, and I would contend it is easily the equal or better of anything ATi can offer AA wise. It also has the advantage of increasing texture quality do to the Super Sampling component.

I used this mode to generate the screenshots below. Unfortunately, due to hosting limitations I can't show 1600x1200 sized images so 1024x768 will have to suffice. (The screens haven't been scaled down, the game was actually set to 1024x768). If someone can host a couple of images at 1.9mb (approx) each, I can provide examples @ 1600x1200.

The display driver used was 76.41, High Quality settings, all optimizations off, 16xS AA, 16x AF.

I encourage those who claim better ATi IQ to provide evidence of their claims. The game I used for the pics is Mafia, because it is very demanding on both AA & AF to look its best.

Screen captures were performed using fraps 2.5.4

The resulting .bmp captures were then converted to jpegs using irfanview V3.95 You can see the conversion settings in the link below. I'm confident these images are as close to the .bmp originals as .jpg will allow.
http://img205.exs.cx/img205/1199/conversion6vm.jpg

pic1
http://img188.exs.cx/img188/6626/pic15nd.jpg

Pic2
http://img223.exs.cx/img223/97/pic24db.jpg

(Yes, I now have a GeForce6 6800GT - the Leadtek model. Yes, I still have my 5900XT, it now resides in my spare machine).

Oh yes, a comment on the actual subject of the thread - pricing. I remember back before the release of R300/nV3x that a certain ATi troll with the handle JDPC (on a different forum) loved to endlessly comment about nVidia's high prices and how such a situation would never occur if ATi were market leader... I wonder what he has to say nowadays...

Radar1200gs

Now radar , since i know you are reading this thread , can you please post in which games that lvl of fsaa is playable in ?

Because 6x fsaa temporal is playable in the majority of games I have like half life 2 , max payne 2 , pain killer to name a few off the top of my head and not even the 8x aa from nvidia which i believe is 4x rotated grid multi sample and 2x super sampling which is avalible in the driver with out a hack , is play able in any of the games i listed above . Actually the only game my father uses it in is quake 3 and coutner strike as it is to slow for any modern game

 

[Richthofen]

Nvidia are beating ATI at pricepoints because Nvidia are subsidising their cards with lower margins.

I don't see Nvidia subsidising anything here. Their margins are going up very strong and a pretty near ATIs level.
I would say its the other way around. ATI is cutting prices.
Best example is the X800XL. This card became necessary because ATI got beaten to hell with the GF6800GT and 6600GT. The 6600GT still is the best buy and sells in huge quantities. No competition in that price segment because the X700XT was to difficult and to expensive to produce. Head problems, stability issues and no real advantage over the GF6600GT made that product disappear soon after launch

The questions you should be asking are why does Nvidia have to cut prices to compete with ATI cards (thus damaging their own profits), and why ATI have been able to resist matching those cuts in the form of a price war.

Again since you seem to have missed something.
Nvidia's revenue, profits and market share is rising @ ATIs cost. The last quater was disappointing on ATIs side. While ATIs revenue was short of expectations Nvidia's revenue is growing. We will see in about 1 months when Nvidia again posts financial results of their current quater.
My guess is that revenue again is going up and so are profits.

 

[Geo]

Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Speaker --is it kosher to relay posts from banned members? Aren't they supposed to be suffering for their sins rather than still getting their licks in?

Come on, Jvd --if you're gonna relay can't you get something crucial in his post just a little bit off enough to completely change its meaning and add to the punishment? Where's your community spirit?

 

[trinibwoy]

radar got banned What'd he do?

 

[Nappe1]

I tried to buy nVidia card that would have equal speed as my old dead Ti4200 64MB within price class under 100 Euros.

I only found two cards: FX 5200 128MB and FX 5700LE 128MB. both are lacking badly in speed behind the TI4200 64MB and the 5700LE had 2-4 weeks delivery time! next more expensive would have been 6200 128MB, put it went 10% over my 100 Eur price limit.

so, I didn't have other chance than looking at ATI models, which I soon found out that 9600 128MB cost around 70-100 Euros, depending where I would buy it and it's much more close to my old Ti4200 performance than either one of nVidia's offerings.

funny thing here is, the cards haven't gotten any faster in this price class during last year. This is just because GF4TI models were dropped, and now the same pricepoint has ATI's 9600, which is faster or slower than TI4200 depending the game. (the average is still pretty much the same.) So, no wonder developers ar having hard time making games, that would be flexible enough to run from FX5200 all way up to 6800Ultra SLI. The speed difference (feature differecies aside) is devastating.


and why I wanted to buy such a crap card?? because the second computer does not need any faster cards. the 2 or 3 years old games will run pretty ok. that computer isn't really for gaming (which ocasionally still happen) but tv-out is still needed.

 

[digitalwanderer]

radar got banned What'd he do?

He was an over-the-top arsehole one too many times who ignored repeated warnings from the staff.

 

[trinibwoy]

radar got banned What'd he do?

He was an over-the-top arsehole one too many times who ignored repeated warnings from the staff.

Is that all?

 

[ANova]

The 6600GT still is the best buy and sells in huge quantities. No competition in that price segment because the X700XT was to difficult and to expensive to produce. Head problems, stability issues and no real advantage over the GF6600GT made that product disappear soon after launch

The vanilla X800 is supposed to retail for $200, the same price as the 6600 GT with performance equal to that of the vanilla 6800. In that respect ATI does have something much better then the 6600 GT at the same price point. The problem of course is the fact that they are still in relatively short supply atm so greedy e-tailers are charging as much as $300 for them. That price will be coming down shortly in the next couple weeks though. In fact they already have.

 

[trinibwoy]

The vanilla X800 is supposed to retail for $200, the same price as the 6600 GT with performance equal to that of the vanilla 6800. In that respect ATI does have something much better then the 6600 GT at the same price point. The problem of course is the fact that they are still in relatively short supply atm so greedy e-tailers are charging as much as $300 for them. That price will be coming down shortly in the next couple weeks though. In fact they already have.

That's a good point. ATI has really dumped some powerful hardware into the lower price points after getting white-washed in the past few months. That's good IMO since it will increase bang for the buck all around. I'm interested to see how Nvidia will respond to these price cuts. The 6800GT will be able to hold off the XL but a 12-pipe 256-bit X800 is going to stomp all over the 6600GT.

 

[_xxx_]

The vanilla X800 is supposed to retail for $200, the same price as the 6600 GT with performance equal to that of the vanilla 6800. In that respect ATI does have something much better then the 6600 GT at the same price point. The problem of course is the fact that they are still in relatively short supply atm so greedy e-tailers are charging as much as $300 for them. That price will be coming down shortly in the next couple weeks though. In fact they already have.

That's a good point. ATI has really dumped some powerful hardware into the lower price points after getting white-washed in the past few months. That's good IMO since it will increase bang for the buck all around. I'm interested to see how Nvidia will respond to these price cuts. The 6800GT will be able to hold off the XL but a 12-pipe 256-bit X800 is going to stomp all over the 6600GT.

I don't believe the X800 will be as cheap as the 6600GT. Also, nV can cut the prices as well if that should be the case.

 

[DegustatoR]

NV44a, NV42 are already here. NV48 is coming. It's not very wise to compare NV's last year line-up to ATI's this year offerings don't you think? I suppose we'll soon see what changes NV will made to it's desktop line-up. I think that they can push NV44/NV43 further down the price line and offer some form of NV42 at $199 to counter X800.

 

[Tweaker]

Do you also know how much of that is OEM? I'm mostly interested in retail.

No, I don't know , but high-end/ultra high-end is usually retail and even if you buy computer from Dell or Alienware you can always choose graphics card.

 

[Sandwich]

I tried to buy nVidia card that would have equal speed as my old dead Ti4200 64MB within price class under 100 Euros.

I only found two cards: FX 5200 128MB and FX 5700LE 128MB. both are lacking badly in speed behind the TI4200 64MB and the 5700LE had 2-4 weeks delivery time! next more expensive would have been 6200 128MB, put it went 10% over my 100 Eur price limit.

so, I didn't have other chance than looking at ATI models, which I soon found out that 9600 128MB cost around 70-100 Euros, depending where I would buy it and it's much more close to my old Ti4200 performance than either one of nVidia's offerings.

funny thing here is, the cards haven't gotten any faster in this price class during last year.

I would disagree. Who can you blame for those crazy prices in finland compared to the rest of the world?
In this case you really should have gone 10 euros over your old budget, because the 6200 is so much more value for money. A vanilla 6200 smokes a 9600.
Edit: crap. look at THIS: http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=1907&s=4

 

[Sandwich]

The vanilla X800 is supposed to retail for $200, the same price as the 6600 GT with performance equal to that of the vanilla 6800. In that respect ATI does have something much better then the 6600 GT at the same price point. The problem of course is the fact that they are still in relatively short supply atm so greedy e-tailers are charging as much as $300 for them. That price will be coming down shortly in the next couple weeks though. In fact they already have.

That's a good point. ATI has really dumped some powerful hardware into the lower price points after getting white-washed in the past few months. That's good IMO since it will increase bang for the buck all around. I'm interested to see how Nvidia will respond to these price cuts. The 6800GT will be able to hold off the XL but a 12-pipe 256-bit X800 is going to stomp all over the 6600GT.

Good news. A pricewar between ATI and nvidia is always welcome.

 

[DegustatoR]

I tried to buy nVidia card that would have equal speed as my old dead Ti4200 64MB within price class under 100 Euros.

I only found two cards: FX 5200 128MB and FX 5700LE 128MB. both are lacking badly in speed behind the TI4200 64MB and the 5700LE had 2-4 weeks delivery time! next more expensive would have been 6200 128MB, put it went 10% over my 100 Eur price limit.

Come to Moscow 8) (the price is the number above bold one and it's in USD)

 

[trinibwoy]

NV44a, NV42 are already here. NV48 is coming. It's not very wise to compare NV's last year line-up to ATI's this year offerings don't you think? I suppose we'll soon see what changes NV will made to it's desktop line-up. I think that they can push NV44/NV43 further down the price line and offer some form of NV42 at $199 to counter X800.

Agreed but that depends on the timing of Nvidia's refresh. Also, ATI has already had a refresh this generation - they've replaced everything from the X700 up. So it's going to be Nvidia's refresh vs ATI's super refresh (or next gen depending on how u look at it).

 

[Richthofen]

The vanilla X800 is supposed to retail for $200, the same price as the 6600 GT with performance equal to that of the vanilla 6800. In that respect ATI does have something much better then the 6600 GT at the same price point. The problem of course is the fact that they are still in relatively short supply atm so greedy e-tailers are charging as much as $300 for them. That price will be coming down shortly in the next couple weeks though. In fact they already have.

See the problem i have with ATIs suggested prices is that they are mostly unrealistic or let me better say too optimistic. I compare products in the same price range according to real prices in retails stores.
I payed 150 Euro for my GF6600GT in Germany. The only product from ATI at the same price level is the X700pro. But you and i know that this product is on lost ground against the 6600GT.
Of course ATI will cut prices and that was the main intention of my previous post. Its not Nvidia subsidising anything here. They were and are in a good position to regain market share, mind share, revenue share and so on. Its ATI who needed to do something. Obviously they did that but it remains to be seen what the pricing in reality will be and of course Nvidia can do price cuts as well. They have new products coming so i highly doubt that anything above X700pro will be a direct competitor to the GF6600GT. I believe it when i see it. Regarding ATIs MSRP....i stated above what i think and of course there was a nice tech-report article concerning this matter.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Good news. A pricewar between ATI and nvidia is always welcome.

Now there is a statement I think EVERYONE here can agree on.

 

[ANova]

See the problem i have with ATIs suggested prices is that they are mostly unrealistic or let me better say too optimistic. I compare products in the same price range according to real prices in retails stores.
I payed 150 Euro for my GF6600GT in Germany. The only product from ATI at the same price level is the X700pro. But you and i know that this product is on lost ground against the 6600GT.
Of course ATI will cut prices and that was the main intention of my previous post. Its not Nvidia subsidising anything here. They were and are in a good position to regain market share, mind share, revenue share and so on. Its ATI who needed to do something. Obviously they did that but it remains to be seen what the pricing in reality will be and of course Nvidia can do price cuts as well. They have new products coming so i highly doubt that anything above X700pro will be a direct competitor to the GF6600GT. I believe it when i see it. Regarding ATIs MSRP....i stated above what i think and of course there was a nice tech-report article concerning this matter.

Unrealistic? I disagree, remember what price the XL debuted at? Yeah it was much higher then MSRP as well. Now it's available for $300 and under. Like I said, the vanilla X800s are already coming down in price; here in the US you can get them for $250 which I think is still a much better buy then the 6600 GT even though it's $50 more. Of course results vary depending on your area.