Controversial this: ATI & retail

[Sandwich]

Whenever I visit online PC shops I can't help thinking whether they actually sold any ATI cards at all.
Comparing current prices, I cannot think of any compelling reason to go for ATI at all.

While the current ATI line-up consists of very good cards, the cards are even less appealing than nvidia cards were in their FX days.
With *maybe* the exception of the new X800XL, ATI is consistently being beaten by nvidia at any pricepoint.
Even with the FX series, nvidia still had a few aces left: good dx8 performance, better AF and superior OpenGL. That and bargain bin pricing made such cards like the GF 5900XT very competative with ATI, despite poor DX9 performance.
ATI's problem seems to be radeons being so similar to the GF6 series, they HAVE to be cheaper, as ATI currently don't have any extra features over nvidia.

Are ATI neglecting the retail market? If so, ATI must have made some pretty amazing OEM deals to get away with it.

 

[trinibwoy]

Are ATI neglecting the retail market? If so, ATI must have made some pretty amazing OEM deals to get away with it.

I don't see how the decision to not support SM3.0 with R420 classifies as neglecting anyone. Their cards are powerful and available at reasonable prices.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Nvidia are beating ATI at pricepoints because Nvidia are subsidising their cards with lower margins. It's a big advantage for Nvidia, but they are only doing it because ATI are beating them on just about any other factor that you take into account when buying a new card. It's fine if all you are interested in is price, but it's also a question of what you are getting for your money.

Even Nvidia's marketing of a slow first generation SM3.0 that no game developer is using in any significant fashion combined with Nvidia's lower pricing through lower margins is simply not enough to counter the advantages that an ATI card offers for many buyers in terms of heat, power usage, IQ, AA, performance, driver support, etc. These things have all been discussed to death already on these forums.

The questions you should be asking are why does Nvidia have to cut prices to compete with ATI cards (thus damaging their own profits), and why ATI have been able to resist matching those cuts in the form of a price war.

 

[WaltC]

Whenever I visit online PC shops I can't help thinking whether they actually sold any ATI cards at all.
Comparing current prices, I cannot think of any compelling reason to go for ATI at all.

Well, how about:

(1) Visibly better IQ

(2) Far, far superior driver support

Those seem exceptionally compelling to me... As well, you also forget that, typically, inferior products in a given market sell for less, and that it is most often demand in a given market which ultimately determines prices. The higher the demand the higher the price, the lower the demand the lower the price (lowering prices beneath a competitor is done to stimulate demand for your own product because you are unhappy with present sales volumes.)

It seems to me you have it exactly backwards: if the online shops you visit were having trouble selling ATi products then the prices for them would be lower than their roughly equivalent nVidia products. What you are observing is typical and commonplace in economies around the world: products which are generally perceived of higher quality sell for more than products in the same class which are generally perceived to be of lower quality. Doesn't matter if it's automobiles, tennis shoes, T-shirts or 3d-cards, that's the way it works in the retail markets.

 

[Sandwich]

The questions you should be asking is why does Nvidia have to cut prices to compete with ATI cards (thus damaging their own profits), and why ATI have been able to resist matching those cuts in the form of a price war.

Well, probably because they want to increase market share and because they can.

Well, how about:

(1) Visibly better IQ

(2) Far, far superior driver support

Nowadays you have to take a magnifying glass to spot IQ differences between Ati and Nvidia.
Nvidia still has better OGL support and far better linux drivers.

It seems to me you have it exactly backwards: if the online shops you visit were having trouble selling ATi products then the prices for them would be lower than their roughly equivalent nVidia products.

Except for the fact that the online shops keep very small stock. That's the reason why they got the best prices; they're not stuck with quantities they cannot sell. They're not bothered at all if a product won't sell.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Well, probably because they want to increase market share and because they can.

You've got it backwards again. Nvidia *have* to cut margins and profits because they have had such a drubbing by ATI since the NV30 debacle. Nvidia were completely dominant, and in the last few years, ATI have gotten bigger, taken half the market and most of the OEMs with PCIe.

Nvidia don't want to give away money to convince people to buy their cards, but they *have* to increase market share because they've lost out so badly compared to three years back.

ATI is worth more than Nvidia as a company, and can subsidise the cost of their cards too, but they don't need to. ATI "can", but don't need to. Nvidia "can" and have to. Geddit?

Nowadays you have to take a magnifying glass to spot IQ differences between Ati and Nvidia.

Not true, especially in the realm of AA/AF, ie the quality enhancing features, as well as things like the colour vibrancy.

Nvidia still has better OGL support and far better linux drivers.

Both very niche areas with small numbers as far as PC gaming goes. Even if you count the one big OGL game (Doom3), that's only a few frames faster on Nvidia hardware because of the "built for D3" shadow support hardware that Nvidia put in, not because of the Nvidia OGL drivers.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Nowadays you have to take a magnifying glass to spot IQ differences between Ati and Nvidia.

I'm an old man with bad vision and the difference is still night/day to me.

nVidia has improved, but they've still to match ATi in the AA department.

 

[Sandwich]

Nowadays you have to take a magnifying glass to spot IQ differences between Ati and Nvidia.

I'm an old man with bad vision and the difference is still night/day to me.

nVidia has improved, but they've still to match ATi in the AA department.

Look, I really don't want to argue about IQ. Even back in the FX days, ati fans couldn't convince nvidia owners ATI looked significantly better and the IQ differences were pretty big back then. Arguing about IQ now is even more hopeless.
Myself, I only ever spot the gamma and brighter surfaces with GF cards and i can't say what looks more wrong.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Look, I really don't want to argue about IQ. Even back in the FX days, ati fans couldn't convince nvidia owners ATI looked significantly better and the IQ differences were pretty big back then. Arguing about IQ now is even more hopeless.
Myself, I only ever spot the gamma and brighter surfaces with GF cards and i can't say what looks more wrong.

Thus further perpetuating the stereo type that nVidia owners have much lower standards and aren't as bright and observant as ATi owners. 8)

 

[wireframe]

ATI "can", but don't need to. Nvidia "can" and have to. Geddit?

This doesn't explain why ATI would advertise an MSRP of, let's say, $499 and then have that card selling at hefty premium on the street. Even "if they can". Would you care to explain it?

 

[BRiT]

ATI "can", but don't need to. Nvidia "can" and have to. Geddit?

This doesn't explain why ATI would advertise an MSRP of, let's say, $499 and then have that card selling at hefty premium on the street. Even "if they can". Would you care to explain it?

You mean like the ATI X850 XT? It's selling for it's MSRP of $499 at retail stores like CompUSA. In the US one can pretty much buy any of the ATI cards at their MSRP or lower. As for why some vendors sell them for higher, it's because they can. The demand is there to support higher than MSRPs.

 

[Sandwich]

Look, I really don't want to argue about IQ. Even back in the FX days, ati fans couldn't convince nvidia owners ATI looked significantly better and the IQ differences were pretty big back then. Arguing about IQ now is even more hopeless.
Myself, I only ever spot the gamma and brighter surfaces with GF cards and i can't say what looks more wrong.

Thus further perpetuating the stereo type that nVidia owners have much lower standards and aren't as bright and observant as ATi owners.

Digi, you rabid fanboi you!

I recall that 2 yrs ago most of the big hardware sites actually got away with telling their audience the image quality of the FX was equally good. Reviewers sometimes would say so, while including as evidence screenshots showing the opposite. People fell for it anyway. Usually went something like 'but nvidia has better AF and both are cheating, so there'.

The point I'm trying to make is, despite some of the disputed advantages ATI may still have, ATI should be losing share to nvidia in the retail market right now.
GF6 cards are cheaper, capable of SM3, have usuable FP32 this time round, better OGL...you'd have to be a crazy fanboi IMO, if you seriously wouldn't want one.

 

[karlotta]

look in the mirror.

 

[digitalwanderer]

GF6 cards are cheaper, capable of SM3, have usuable FP32 this time round, better OGL...you'd have to be a crazy fanboi IMO, if you seriously wouldn't want one.

SM3 still has yet to prove itself unless you're a huge SC fan, ATi's AA is still noticeably better, and their driver support is insanely better than nVidia's currently.

Oh, and chicks dig guys with ATi cards whilst nVidia cards have been scientifically proven to promote acne.

The only selling point I see that nVidia clearly leads ATi on is Linux, and ATi is working to change that.

 

[digitalwanderer]

look in the mirror.

Ah, what a handsome guy!

"You have the cool, clear eyes of a seeker of wisdom and truth;
but with that upturned chin and that grin of perpetual youth..."

 

[_xxx_]

SM3 still has yet to prove itself unless you're a huge SC fan, ATi's AA is still noticeably better, and their driver support is insanely better than nVidia's currently.

The image quality is exactly the same IMHO. I can't find any differences and I'd say my eyes are ok.

As for driver support, both have very good drivers. Which games do you know that have serious problems with either longer than a few weeks? Me, none.

Both chips are about equal in terms of speed. One extra point goes to nVidia for SM3, because it's a technological plus on ATI.

I just don't get all that "nVidia's FP32 is too slow" or "SM3 is too slow" speech. IT'S THE FASTEST ONE ON THE MARKET, get it? It may be as bad as s**t, but it's still the best available. And even if it enables two more light bulbs in a scene, it's a plus nontheless.

So at the moment, nV is still a technological leader by a very small margin. In terms of speed, IQ and drivers they're about the same now.

Current stand:

NVIDIA |- - - x|- - - -| ATI

 

[ondaedg]

heh, you just did a turkey call for all the ATI fabnois (spelled incorrectly on purpose). 8)

Just watch cause these turkeys carry loaded guns called keyboards and they wil fire back, some more than others (shot fired over Walt's bow)

 

[Sandwich]

ATi's AA is still noticeably better, and their driver support is insanely better than nVidia's currently.

That's an insanely huge overstatement. With the exception of some issues with SLI, games work properly with nvidia cards.
Wonders what word you'd use to describe the difference between ATI and XGI drivers. :?

 

[digitalwanderer]

ATi's AA is still noticeably better, and their driver support is insanely better than nVidia's currently.

That's an insanely huge overstatement. With the exception of some issues with SLI, games work properly with nvidia cards.
Wonders what word you'd use to describe the difference between ATI and XGI drivers. :?

I said "driver support", not drivers.

The monthly release schedule of ATi's kicks the bejeebus out of nVidia's non-existant policy.....you agree? :|

 

[wireframe]

ATI "can", but don't need to. Nvidia "can" and have to. Geddit?

This doesn't explain why ATI would advertise an MSRP of, let's say, $499 and then have that card selling at hefty premium on the street. Even "if they can". Would you care to explain it?

You mean like the ATI X850 XT? It's selling for it's MSRP of $499 at retail stores like CompUSA. In the US one can pretty much buy any of the ATI cards at their MSRP or lower. As for why some vendors sell them for higher, it's because they can. The demand is there to support higher than MSRPs.

I see that you are completely correct and that the X850XT is, indeed, selling at around it's MSRP of $499. I don't go price hunting very often, but I could have sworn that just a month or so ago it was ~$600. Good to see that the prices are sane. I guess it was just a delay in the supplies and that now the market has reached saturation.

I should probably explain myself more, but let it suffice to say that up until this time, every time someone has said "X850XT is available at MSRP" it was either wrong by the price or the product was simply not available. Again, good to see that this situation has apparently changed for the better.