Console: KB/M=Cheat, Wheel=Acceptable

[D3v0ur3r]

I don't think you've been paying attention.

I've been paying attention just fine. People are making lots of points for & against the wheel.

Look at what Arwin and I have been saying."The wheel is not an inherent advantage in racing games. It is more intuitive if you don't have the dexterity necessary to move a thumbstick as precisely as needed,"

I completely disagree with this. The thumb stick is worse then the D-pad for steering imo. The thumb stick also has far less travel area needed to make any sort of turn. Making it far more easy to either under or over steer on a very regular basis. The Wheel has feedback which also allows you to gauge far easier how far the wheel needs to be turned. It is an advantage.

You people are all caught up in who much more or less the advantage is. Personally I disagree fully that its not a large advantage & how much the advantage is wasn't ever my point. It is an advantage & its never really been pissed & moaned about on a large scale. & yet is perfectly acceptable. There is an option for the players for a better device, period. One of which is far better suited for its intended purpose imo.

but the controller is capable of everything that the wheel is.

KB/M is in a whole other league of input advantage over a controller, especially for shooters.

1st. Technically the controller is capable of everything the KB/M can do as well (as far as what's needed to play the game). Its just not near as good at it.

2nd. Some actually disagree which is part of my over all point but I happen to agree with you. Again, which some of the people here just keep ignoring. Where is this so called enormous advantage if the player operating the server can refuse either input device from entering his server? KB/M vs Controller being the point. Epic will do this with UT3 for PS3 so obviously other Devs can as well for the PS3.

Btw. I am having to try & write replies atm between helping my twin boys with homework, so I am having a bit of a time trying to keep focus on what I am trying to say. Please forgive me.

 

[Mintmaster]

I've been paying attention just fine. People are making lots of points for & against the wheel.

Sorry, but it just came off like you think it's agreed upon that a wheel gives an advantage in racing. Arwin and I don't think so, and Arwin even went so far as to suggest that the controller has an advantage. There may be correlation, but that doesn't imply causation.

I completely disagree with this. The thumb stick is worse then the D-pad for steering imo. The thumb stick also has far less travel area needed to make any sort of turn. Making it far more easy to either under or over steer on a very regular basis. The Wheel has feedback which also allows you to gauge far easier how far the wheel needs to be turned. It is an advantage.

You're just proving my point. Dexterity is the only difference.

Would you drive better with a 3 foot wheel instead of standard sized? The former has more travel, after all. It's just a matter of what your abilities are. The limit of your dexterity prevents you from producing the input necessary for top class driving with a controller, but you can with a wheel. For other people, their dexterity allows them to use a thumbstick to produce the necessary input.

(Regarding FF, I never found it helps me with driving. It's a fun effect and adds to immersion, but that's it. Sound alerts me of slippage just as well.)

1st. Technically the controller is capable of everything the KB/M can do as well (as far as what's needed to play the game).

No it isn't. You can play the game but you cannot generate the inputs necessary to be really good at it.

Imagine if two people in a FPS approach each other but are not directly facing each other. Rather, for each player their opponent is on the left of edge of their screen. For the guy with a controller, it takes, say, 0.3 seconds to get the crossbar over to the opponent. For the guy with a mouse, it can be done in tens of milliseconds. It doesn't matter how good the guy with the controller is. He has a hard limit on how fast he can change direction.

 

[D3v0ur3r]

All of what you've said is pure opinion, just as all of what I have been saying is pure opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of people that agree with either. Guess we will agree to disagree. Copout I know but the alternative is continuing to make my opinion points then you then I then you till we just agree to disagree later.

However this "No it isn't. You can play the game but you cannot generate the inputs necessary to be really good at it." again I would have agreed with you until I've seen video of a Halo 3 player that I would actually be worried about playing against even if I was using KB/M. Sure I imagine there are few this good on a controller but none the less what I seen looked awfully darn good. My dexterity btw is perfectly fine with KB/M. But I find it difficult to move a tiny next to nil resisting thumb stick in tiny slow movements while in exciting situations.

About that video. I think Joshua Luna posted the link to this video, but I can not be certain about that. I do know the link was posted somewhere in the console forums I just can't remember where or even by whom or I would post it as well. Maybe if it was Joshua Luna he would be kind enough to post it again.

 

[Mintmaster]

All of what you've said is pure opinion, just as all of what I have been saying is pure opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of people that agree with either. Guess we will agree to disagree.

Other than the FF part, it's all fact. One could design a machine to hold a controller and exactly replicate any input sequence that a wheel does. However, you cannot make a machine that aims with a controller in the same manner as a mouse does.

This is why a wheel in a racing game is not analogous to a KB/M in a shooter.

However this "No it isn't. You can play the game but you cannot generate the inputs necessary to be really good at it." again I would have agreed with you until I've seen video of a Halo 3 player that I would actually be worried about playing against even if I was using KB/M. Sure I imagine there are few this good on a controller but none the less what I seen looked awfully darn good.

Maybe so, but if you watch the best KB/M players it will be even more amazing. The speed at which they identify and target enemies is incredible. It is impossible to aim that fast with a controller. I'm not talking opinion here. I mean literally impossible.

 

[D3v0ur3r]

Other than the FF part, it's all fact. One could design a machine to hold a controller and exactly replicate any input sequence that a wheel does. However, you cannot make a machine that aims with a controller in the same manner as a mouse does.

Edit: Meh. Nevermind. This is going nowhere fast I think.

 

[dobwal]

Other than the FF part, it's all fact. One could design a machine to hold a controller and exactly replicate any input sequence that a wheel does. However, you cannot make a machine that aims with a controller in the same manner as a mouse does.

This is why a wheel in a racing game is not analogous to a KB/M in a shooter.

Maybe so, but if you watch the best KB/M players it will be even more amazing. The speed at which they identify and target enemies is incredible. It is impossible to aim that fast with a controller. I'm not talking opinion here. I mean literally impossible.

I agree. Your thumbs can't replicate the speed and fine control of a mouse enabled by the muscles of your arms, wrist and hands. The KB/M is to a console contoller like driving with your hands is to driving with your knees.

 

[Colourless]

There is one way that Dual Analog Thumb sticks are better than KB/M, and it's a very minor point. The Analog controls on the stick give you better movement control than the on-off buttons on your keyboard. Though better movement control on the sticks doesn't make up for the better view/aim control on the mouse.

 

[D3v0ur3r]

You guys continue to try & make a point that the KB/M is far more an advantage then the Wheel. If you have to continue which is more an advantage fine but I never made an apple to apples comparison. Simply that the Wheel is an advantage is acceptable no matter the amount. As well as its another option to play racing games with. But FPS games have no options & its been said many times in many forums that the KB/M is cheating.

Aside from which is more an advantage do you people agree that the Wheel is an advantage over the controller?

If yes then shouldn't Wheels get the same treatment as its not a "level" playing field if this is the main argument for KB/M? & again the amount to which is a greater advantage is really pointless if they both are an advantage. This has really been my point the entire time. Not which is greater.

 

[Mintmaster]

Aside from which is more an advantage do you people agree that the Wheel is an advantage over the controller?

For the last time, NO!

Some people play better with a wheel, but as Arwin said, a lot of the top players don't use one. The dexterity required may be a bit bigger with the thumbstick, but the upper limit of what can be done is the SAME. After that point it's a matter of how good you are at finding the optimal line.

If you're good enough, you can do anything with a thumbstick that others can do with a wheel. OTOH, no matter how good you are, there are things you cannot do with a thumbstick that others can do with a mouse.

 

[archie4oz]

ou would have been right if it weren't for the d-pad, which has remained the preferred method of control for many controller players. The d-pad has considerable steering aid to make sure that you can't steer too much, something which is not present when using the analog stick. (I've extensively compared front wheel movement with all three methods of control)

Actually the steering aid is there as well on sticks, it's just not nearly as invasive as it is with the d-pad and the manner in which it works is different. Also I wouldn't necessarily treat wheel movements as an accurate method of detecting the actual angle of attack being input. It's not uncommon for an older title to just map analog input to the the displayed wheel angle but doesn't input that angle of attack into it's friction calculation.

Again, vice versa isn't even necessarily true - you can't make as sudden transitions from left to right with a wheel as you can with a controller, d-pad or analog stick both.

You don't necessarily want sudden transitions. On a primitive title it's fine, but on a more accurate title, you'll just exceed the grip of your tire really quickly and the car will just plow (or you'll exceed the rear grip and your car now thinks it's a 80's 911).

Good to know. I hate the deadzone in GT3, and as a consequence I almost used the stick like I would use the d-pad (sort of like PWM).

That's why it's there... Thankfully it's going away on newer and newer titles, but if you've over had to watch a bunch of average people play testing your racing title you'd wince if you knew how many people drive analog sticks as if they were binary inputs (even if there is no dead zone); and that leads me to...

I disagree about the d-pad, though. Racing games put a rate limiter on how fast the simulation's internal wheel moves when controlled by a digital input for obvious reasons. Most games map to an analogue control in a 1:1 manner.

Which is why a lot of titles *don't* map 1:1 with analogue sticks (all the time).

I'm not saying it's cheating, but D3v0ur3r's analogy is flawed. It is physically impossible for a controller to match the input sequence of a mouse, but it can match a wheel.

Actually that's not entirely accurate. A mouse can only input what a game will allow it to, just like a stick. You wanna spin around at 900º a second? Go ahead you can do it with both. The only problem is that when it comes to the mouse (and typically you're not going to do that with an optical mouse practically either) you have more resolution so precision aiming is still relatively easy while retaining the very high rate of input. You *can* help the stick out a bit by offering variable rates (RC aircraft and helicopters have been doing this for decades), or by making the stick input non-linear, but IMO that simply adds too much complexity (particularly if title is fast-paced).

What a mouse has over a stick is two things, resolution and there's no zero position. The former I elaborated above, with the latter a stick ultimately has to return to zero to cease input where as a mouse has no zero position (for more fun try playing with a mouse vs. a digitizer). So the user is constantly fighting the stick. Losing the return spring doesn't really help since that makes it harder for a user to find zero on the stick (although it does FPSs interesting).

All FPSs are doing is using a mouse as a visual pointer, and desktop GUIs proved long before FPSs that the mouse is generally the most ideal visual pointer for computers (although I know some people are really good on FPSs with trackballs as well). Other input methods simply require more aids to make them more palatable as in input method. Same goes for steering wheels where more than a century of automobiles have generally shown that the wheel is the most ideal control input for a car.

Arwin and I don't think so, and Arwin even went so far as to suggest that the controller has an advantage. There may be correlation, but that doesn't imply causation

And you and Arwin are both wrong. The pad (or stick for that matter) has no advantage unless there are either aids to assist input or the user inputing data is a machine.

Would you drive better with a 3 foot wheel instead of standard sized? The former has more travel, after all. It's just a matter of what your abilities are.

No, it would be a detriment. Why do you think suicide knobs exist? The ratio of your steering rack is going to be the larger factor.

(Regarding FF, I never found it helps me with driving. It's a fun effect and adds to immersion, but that's it. Sound alerts me of slippage just as well.)

Sounds alert you just as well because it's a aural aid that's not necessarily very realistic. G-forces are going to tell you more than anything only you really can't simulate those very well in most games. The next most obvious notifier will be your wheel. As you're losing traction your wheel is going to become light in your hands as there's not enough friction in the tire to center your wheel. Force feedback gives you this sensation (a vibrating seat would also translate this as well to some degree). In fact you may not hear much of any aural notifier. In a more realistic racing game, the softness of your tire compound, it's amount of wear and it's temperature are going to dictate how much noise it makes, and in many cases you won't get much of a squeal. Rather you often will get more of a rumble at best (which you'll feel more than hear), and you may not hear it over the noise of your powerplant or the wind.

However, you cannot make a machine that aims with a controller in the same manner as a mouse does.

Again, wrong! It all boils down to sample rate. All aiming in a game is, is simply accumulating input in a direction. If you're having a machine deliver the input, then it just boils down to input device sample rate.

 

[D3v0ur3r]

Nice post. Far better then anything I could argue with. It sounds like you are saying the Wheel does have an advantage over a controller when said wheel has force (if I am not completely wrong). Force being the main reason in my opinion for the advantage. It just give you more information & how to process it better. Least that's my perspective on the Wheel vs. Controller.

 

[archie4oz]

For the last time, NO!

Some people play better with a wheel, but as Arwin said, a lot of the top players don't use one. The dexterity required may be a bit bigger with the thumbstick, but the upper limit of what can be done is the SAME. After that point it's a matter of how good you are at finding the optimal line.

If you're good enough, you can do anything with a thumbstick that others can do with a wheel. OTOH, no matter how good you are, there are things you cannot do with a thumbstick that others can do with a mouse.

Absolutely wrong, yes the wheel is a complete advantage. The only reason why people are good at racing games with game pads and sticks is simply because there's an absolute ass load of assist the keep the car controllable. FPSs don't provide this nearly as much (in some cases not at all). Shooters, as where pad players compete as well as mouse players have are providing assists for the pads (or hampering the mice).

There is one way that Dual Analog Thumb sticks are better than KB/M, and it's a very minor point. The Analog controls on the stick give you better movement control than the on-off buttons on your keyboard.

Actually, once you tie that analog movement to stealth and/or balance factors (skating/surfing/snowboarding titles do use balance to some degree though), it plays a far more critical role. No FPSs really do much with that at all, but it's certainly something that can be explored.

 

[Arwin]

Actually when I Gran Turismo with a controller, I personally prefer the analog stick, especially since GT4, and that in fact has no additional assists at all.

 

[Gubbi]

Actually when I Gran Turismo with a controller, I personally prefer the analog stick, especially since GT4, and that in fact has no additional assists at all.

The analog stick has the same gradual response as a wheel, and is "the right" way to play racing games IMO compared to the d-pad where the game *always* helps to minimize slip-angle.

For the most part a controller with analog stick and a wheel is comparable in performance. There are a few races where a wheel makes a big difference though.

An example is the LEGENDS WORLD TROPHY cup in Forza 2 where you drive either a Ferrari 330 P4 or the Ford GT40. It's like driving on soap, - with 500 bhp on the rear axle. It's easily the hardest races in Forza 2 IMO if you drive without assists. Using a controller you go from heavy understeer to catastrophic oversteer in 1-2 mm movement of the stick. A wheel makes a *big* difference, using one the race is actually quite good fun (it's like driving ice-rally: point the nose against the apex and hit the throttle).

Cheers

 

[Mintmaster]

Absolutely wrong, yes the wheel is a complete advantage. The only reason why people are good at racing games with game pads and sticks is simply because there's an absolute ass load of assist the keep the car controllable.

Like Gubbi and Arwin said, that's not true for the stick. Moreover, you say I'm wrong without disproving anything I said.

In real games, is a stick capable of generating the same optimal input as a wheel? Yes.
In real games, is a stick capable of generating the same optimal input as a mouse? No.

 

[Mintmaster]

Which is why a lot of titles *don't* map 1:1 with analogue sticks (all the time).

You're arguing in the wrong direction of the point you're trying to prove. If they did 1:1 mapping, then an analogue controller is capable of generating any input that a wheel is. But you're saying they're adding assists. How does that give the wheel an advantage now?

Actually that's not entirely accurate. A mouse can only input what a game will allow it to, just like a stick. You wanna spin around at 900º a second? Go ahead you can do it with both. The only problem is that when it comes to the mouse (and typically you're not going to do that with an optical mouse practically either) you have more resolution so precision aiming is still relatively easy while retaining the very high rate of input.

There is a much bigger difference than that. Movement of a mouse directly translates to orientation of the character. A controller stick translates to rate of change of orientation of the character.

This works because you can move a mouse, lift it up, and recentre it. You can't do that with a thumbstick or joystick. You did notice this fact, but you did not notice how this allows position control instead of velocity control (well, orientation vs. angular velocity to be more specific).

And you and Arwin are both wrong. The pad (or stick for that matter) has no advantage unless there are either aids to assist input or the user inputing data is a machine.

I never said that the pad has an advantage, and Arwin said the exact same thing you are here. Why are you saying we're wrong, then?

No, it would be a detriment. Why do you think suicide knobs exist? The ratio of your steering rack is going to be the larger factor.

That's precisely my point, genius! The travel of the joystick is too small for him, but a 3 foot wheel is too big. For someone else with better dexterity, the travel of a stick is not too small.

Sounds alert you just as well because it's a aural aid that's not necessarily very realistic.

That's all I was trying to say. It was a side note, anyway.

Again, wrong! It all boils down to sample rate. All aiming in a game is, is simply accumulating input in a direction. If you're having a machine deliver the input, then it just boils down to input device sample rate.

No it does not! Sample rate will not help you. For any shooter controlled by a stick, you have a maximum rate of movement corresponding to the stick being all the way over. There is no max for a mouse (practically speaking). A stick controls velocity. A mouse controls position.

Maybe theoretically speaking a dev could do a mapping of a joystick where moving a stick all the way over corresponds to insane rotations speeds (i.e. 90 degrees per frame), and one could make a machine that converts the derivative of a mouse's position into the correct joystick position. Then it's possible to create equal input. However, not only do we have no games with such a mapping, but the machine would move far faster than a human thumb could. This is not true of the analogy between the wheel and the stick.

 

[Gubbi]

Absolutely wrong, yes the wheel is a complete advantage. The only reason why people are good at racing games with game pads and sticks is simply because there's an absolute ass load of assist the keep the car controllable.

The only assist is a reduction of sensitivity with higher speeds. And Fafalada mentioned in another thread that the same is done for wheels in some cases.

Enabling telemetry in Forza 2 clearly shows that steering is directly dependant on controller input. - And that game drives perfectly.

Cheers

 

[Arwin]

To make Mintmaster's point clearer (if that's even necessary), the controller would have to be mapped so that if you push it all the way up, you aim at the top of the screen, and if you push all the way down, you aim at the bottom of the screen, and if you then let it go again, it would recenter. Now the sixaxis' 10bit analog sticks gives you a 0-1024 range, which if you are to be as precise as a mouse, you'll need to be able to hit with a one-pixel precision. Mind you, I could imagine that with some assist tricks and a lot of experimentation, you might actually be able to do better with this method for a variety of shooting actions (I should experiment with that sometime), but right now no games using the analog stick work this way, and therefore they simply don't match mouse control.

So whatever is done, the way it works right now, mouse control vs analog stick control is fundamentally different. Again, I'd love to experiment also with sixaxis motion control and all sorts of things to reinvent controls for the genre, and considering the number of analog inputs you can get from these six axis, 2 analog sticks, and analog buttons, I'm think that eventually we should be able to get to a point where keyboard/mouse may be overruled as the best way for controlling an fps game (not to mention the interesting Time Crisis 4 controller), but we're not quite there yet.

(I for a while played Descent on PC using my driving wheel's pedals for forward and backward movement - that game really should benefit from remake or inspired game using the full sixaxis controls, imho. - that thing could move on so many axis it was scary )

 

[sevanig]

The d-pad is much better on the ps3 than the 360, any racing game I play on the ps3 I use the d-pad (finished motorstorm with it) but on the 360 I use the analog (even after dong the knife hack on the d-pad) its just too clunky...

 

[LunchBox]

Another thing to consider is that the wheel has pedals... I dunno if it's considered as "cheating" but IMHO it's a lot more comfortable to step on the darn thing than holding a button for gas while steering with the analog stick. From the games that I've played, it's also a lot easier to drift using the gas and brake pedals than on the controller