Console: KB/M=Cheat, Wheel=Acceptable

[Mintmaster]

You would have been right if it weren't for the d-pad, which has remained the preferred method of control for many controller players. The d-pad has considerable steering aid to make sure that you can't steer too much, something which is not present when using the analog stick.

Interesting. I knew the d-pad has limits on the rate of steering movement, but I didn't know about steering aid limiting how far you can steer.

In the GT5 Prologue Demo by the way there is currently no deadzone whatsoever for either the wheel or analog stick, and that took me some getting used to. I'm sure in the final game it'll be configurable (as it is in for instance Forza 2).

Good to know. I hate the deadzone in GT3, and as a consequence I almost used the stick like I would use the d-pad (sort of like PWM).

Again, vice versa isn't even necessarily true - you can't make as sudden transitions from left to right with a wheel as you can with a controller, d-pad or analog stick both.

Maybe you could argue that the analogue stick can switch faster than the wheel, but the wheel can still be faster than what's necessary to achieve the perfect lap. Grab the centre of the wheel and twist your wrist if you have to.

I disagree about the d-pad, though. Racing games put a rate limiter on how fast the simulation's internal wheel moves when controlled by a digital input for obvious reasons. Most games map to an analogue control in a 1:1 manner.

It's a hugely complex matter. The controller does have two analog sticks you can use, and depending on what a game does with that, there is a little bit more control possible for the combinatino of movement and aiming. So far for many games the importance of speed and precision in aiming seems to clearly outweigh that advantage in coordinated movement. But I must say, in a game like Bioshock the 360's analog stick give excellent combined control.

Maybe there are situations in some games where two analogue XY inputs are essential, but my point is that a controller could never match the inputs to a game that a mouse can generate.

 

[-tkf-]

With the current consoles i still don´t understand why the developers doesnt let the online servers decide if they accept kb+mouse.

I can´t play any of the current FPS games on consoles without getting extremely frustrated. Resistance,Killzone 2, Halo 3 are wasted on me.

 

[rekator]

Wheels it's for a better immersion and a more realist feeling like in reality… and it's more easy this gamepad due to assist like Archie4oz explain.
Are a Kb+M the real way to make a gunfight… no… Wiimote was more closer to reality than a Kb+M.
Kb+M is far aways from real, the opposit of the wheel, for me Kb+M is more easy and kill the immersion in game, but I understood that for competition it's the better choice
So it's normal to not authorized Kb+M vs Gamepad… Kb+M got a very huge advantage

 

[Phil]

Saying a kb/m is cheating is ignorant. Its simply a better way to control, and anyone should have the option. Its time console makers and devs get on the ball with this.

The problem is the market. There are simply not enough console gamers willing to play FPS games with a keyboard/mouse, since in the majority of cases (and traditionally), a console is hooked up to a TV that for the most part sits somewhere in the livingroom with the couch and all. Having keyboard/mouse users participate in online matches together with the majority of those who use a controller would be highly frustrating for most users.

If you are to implement keyboard/mouse for online play - they should be split into seperate rooms to that everyone more or less has a equal playing field. Splitting the user base though is not something game devs would like to do though (less players online).

 

[Arwin]

Interesting. I knew the d-pad has limits on the rate of steering movement, but I didn't know about steering aid limiting how far you can steer.

Good to know. I hate the deadzone in GT3, and as a consequence I almost used the stick like I would use the d-pad (sort of like PWM).

Maybe you could argue that the analogue stick can switch faster than the wheel, but the wheel can still be faster than what's necessary to achieve the perfect lap. Grab the centre of the wheel and twist your wrist if you have to.

Typically, yes, but there are definitely exceptions, in Rally or Rally-like driving for instance. And don't forget that force-feedback (and in some cars at especially at lower speeds and when using the Driving Force Pro, 900 degrees of steering) makes it even harder to pull off a quick left right wheel movement. But yes, overall, the two even out, and you can achieve a near perfect lap with both, as is witnessed at the highest level of competition. But, you do sometimes see trends that in certain race styles d-pad wins more, and in other wheels.

Back when I got the df pro first, I used 900 degree mode on GT3, which doesn't actually support it. Thus there was no mapping to how much you need to turn the wheel at different speeds, causing you to have to turn a rather lot for everything. Definitely a downside in most cases, but then I found a track (Apricot Hill) and a slow car (old mini cooper) where I could actually pull off a great lap. And with such low powered cars, it's all about keeping the tire friction to the absolute minimum possible, so getting the smoothest line possible is essential. After 20 laps of getting used to it and perfecting it, I literally obliterated the then best time (though mind you competition on that combination wasn't tough, but it had been driven by one of the best guys back then and I beat that by several seconds), and got called out for that online subsequently several times. Fortunately I had saved the replay. (racing games that don't allow you to save a proper replay suck!)

I disagree about the d-pad, though. Racing games put a rate limiter on how fast the simulation's internal wheel moves when controlled by a digital input for obvious reasons. Most games map to an analogue control in a 1:1 manner.

I don't think many people are even aware of this (almost forgot it myself), but actually when studying this I discovered that the d-pad on the PS2's controller, like many of the other buttons, can be read both analog and digital, and it is in fact read analog in GT4 if I remember correctly. But obviously in this game it's not mapped 1:1 and there's some definite assists there. But this is the case in more games than you might think.

Maybe there are situations in some games where two analogue XY inputs are essential, but my point is that a controller could never match the inputs to a game that a mouse can generate.

Nope, not in terms of precision and speed. But with all the assists, and depending on the game, who knows? I'd like to find out for sure somehow. Maybe it's easier to get a great console gamer to configure a controller on a PC and set up a match, or may set up certain kinds of tests. What we've not discussed for instance, is how many d-pad GT players haven't been able to make the transition to the wheel at all. They never got as fast as they were with the d-pad, and didn't have the patience to invest enough time to overcome their huge investment of learning to pay the game with the d-pad over several years. Even if we have different default capabilities between keyboard/mouse and controller, we're absolutely seeing something similar when it comes to that kind of transition.

And I certainly personally prefer the controller these days (I go way back on PC with fps games). Just more comfortable and certainly when everyone uses it these things don't matter.

All in all I really agree with most people ... Just support the keyboard and mouse, all these consoles can do this easily enough, and it would open up the console market both to more gamers, and to more genres. But nobody (except now Epic) seems to want to make this investment. But if Epic is successful, then this may change. I might buy their game just for that reason alone, even though I'm not otherwise interested in the game.

 

[dskneo]

In a racing game, the differences between a controller and a steering wheel is far smaller (less noticable) and less of an issue than in a FPS between keyboard/mouse and a controller.

i'm sorry but that is a totally false i may say. Not even close.
It happens I race semi-professionally (i'm not paid, yet) in live for speed and other sims AND I play FPS at a good level and i cannot agree with that at all.

Now, if you are talking about super-arcade racing games, maybe i agree.


edit: to give a better idea, the very difference between wheels (g25, dfp, momo) makes a very big difference in racing games. Now imagine a controller.

 

[Arwin]

Yes, that's what I wanted to add - obviously a huge advantage for wheel controllers in games is that it makes your real-life skills translate to the game better. The DF Pro is in that respect the first wheel controller I got that noone has trouble driving a game with (in that respect the 180 vs 900 degree support thing made a huge difference).

 

[Phil]

i'm sorry but that is a totally false i may say. Not even close.
It happens I race semi-professionally (i'm not paid, yet) in live for speed and other sims AND I play FPS at a good level and i cannot agree with that at all.

If you are assuming, I have little to no experience in racing games (or racing in real for that matter), you're mistaken.

I also play my games with a steering-wheel, but have also played the same games with a controller against equally skilled people that used the wheel in a head-to-head race. Difference isn't as big as comparing the gameplay of a FPS using a mouse to one using a controller. It just isn't.

In a FPS, using an inferiour input device such as a controller compared to one using a keyboard is lethal, as in these games, it especially matters how accurately you can aim (to the head) and how quickly and precise you can rotate around the axis.

In a racing game - the benefit of using a steering wheel is the higher degree of sensitivity one can apply, while of course having force-feedback which also helps to give more feedback about the car. Also, using a wheel is usually more challenging and has a higher learning curve than driving with a controller. It's easier for most casual people to get quicker lap times with a controller over a wheel until they really start to get accustomed with a steering wheel. None-the-less, it isn't impossible to be just as quick with a controller as with a wheel - it just takes skill.

 

[Arwin]

Yes, but in defense of dskneo, there are certain games on PC that just don't take controller input into account at all. Some of those are really pretty much unplayable with anything but a wheel.

 

[D3v0ur3r]

I think some of you are getting a bit to caught up in a apples to apples comparison of KB/M vs. Controller, & the Wheel vs. Controller. I think we can all agree that the former is a bit more of an advantage. The over all point is, the Wheel is a rather large advantage against a controller on many racing games & yet its perfectly acceptable. As well as its encouraged obviously to have the option to use either & not separate the players online. Its just completely idiotic that the Devs, & MS do not give the players the same option of KB/M or Controller for FPS games for whatever reasons. The controller is pretty outdated in all honesty. Its major advance that I can think of in the last 20 years would be removing the cord & on some adding motion sensing. Yipeee! Yes the mouse one could argue may be out dated but it at least is the optimal way to play a FPS currently & I would have to say its advances are far superior then the controller over boths life span. Going from a ball, to optical, to laser, & cordless long before a controller to my knowledge.

As Joshua Luna pointed out there are many variables to online gaming that pretty much make a level playing field an impossibility accept when on a Lan with identical setups. Not saying add the KB/M & force the controllers to play or even learn the KB/M but at least have the option to use either & the option to separate the two online. Although forcing the two to play together doesn't sound to bad to me as currently I am complete shite on the controller & far more experienced on the KB/M but yet I am pretty much forced to adapt & learn the lousy controller. Its like devolution & giving up my nice 2003 Dodge Dakota Sport for a 8 year old horse & lousy buggy. I know better, have had better & yet I'm for the most part stuck with the lousy half dead horse & buggy, with new age horse shoes of course (= removing the controller cord).

Its pretty hypocritical to allow multiple control options for racing with the wheel having a clear advantage in most cases but then adamantly deny a proven better option to the controller in FPS games which is a substantially bigger market.

Someone said that there are to many controller players for the devs to suddenly add KB/M support & then alienate the controller players. Complete Rubbish! There are a substantial amount of those controller players that would also prefer the KB/M as well as there is room for both. The couch excuse is nothing more then an excuse. I can buy a decent sized stiff mouse board, having both wireless KB/M & be perfectly comfortable. If anyone owns Oblivion & has the collectors addition, I believe you see the tester sitting on a couch using a KB/M for testing. OMG!!!! Didn't someone tell him that's against the KB/M code of play?

So where is all this pissing & moaning getting me? No where but maybe I feel a little better pissing & moaning about this complete injustice. Injustice may be a bit overboard but I sure as hell hate the controller for FPS games. Love everything else about the next gen consoles though. 90% good, 10% shite.

 

[Phil]

Yes, but in defense of dskneo, there are certain games on PC that just don't take controller input into account at all. Some of those are really pretty much unplayable with anything but a wheel.

Thanks for the explanation - I wasn't quite aware about the situation on the PC, though in my defence, we're in the console forum, speaking about console gaming, so naturally, I was taking examples found in the console space...

In a console racer, the usage of analog stick is probably a lot better suited than the keyboard on most PC games.


Anyway, on to D3v0ur3r:

I think some of you are getting a bit to caught up in a apples to apples comparison of KB/M vs. Controller, & the Wheel vs. Controller. I think we can all agree that the former is a bit more of an advantage. The over all point is, the Wheel is a rather large advantage against a controller on many racing games & yet its perfectly acceptable.

I'm glad we've (finally) established that the KB/M offers a greater advantage over gamepads than a wheel does over a controller. That, to me, answers your following question as to why it's acceptable. In case you've missed it - it's acceptable, because the advantage offered is not all that big and hasn't been an issue in online-multiplayer thus far. Not in games found on consoles anyway - it might be different on the PC, as Arwin further above noted.

I've played in quite a few LAN games (GT3 comes to mind) in where I challenged equally skilled players using a controller against them using the wheel. It's barely noticable and is only an advantage to someone who has a lot of skill and time invested in using the wheel. When racing for lap times, mine are usually quicker with the wheel, but only after practising for a lot of time and even then, it wasn't impossible to get close to it using a controller. With the equal amount of practise using the controller, I'm sure I would have been just as quick.

As others in this thread have noted - perhaps your perceived difference between players using a wheel and the gamepad is due to the former being significantly more hardcore and playing the game more often, thus are more skilled players. I know it's how I developed my skills: Using a wheel is a lot more immersive and presented a bigger challenge - in other words, it also kept the game more interesting and challenging for a longer time, thus making me a better, more skilled player.

Not saying add the KB/M & force the controllers to play or even learn the KB/M but at least have the option to use either & the option to separate the two online. Although forcing the two to play together doesn't sound to bad to me as currently I am complete shite on the controller & far more experienced on the KB/M but yet I am pretty much forced to adapt & learn the lousy controller.

Yep, you're forced to adapt & learn the lousy controller just as all "the more experienced" other players were forced to do as well.

The reason why your comparison between an online racer using a wheel and a FPS not allowing KB/M is not valid, is because in the former - the advantage isn't as clear, while in the latter, any player, regardless the experience can come in and be significantly better than anyone (regardless the skill) using a controller. There's simply no way a controller can match the accuracy and speed of a KB/M setup. I'd go as far to say that the mouse is nearly as good as having a lightgun to aim and shoot.

Most people, regardless if you chose to believe so or not, have their consoles hooked up in an environment where hooking up a KB/M is problematic. I have compatible KB/M at home as well, but rather not use them with my PS3 as when I play games, I want to be able to enjoy them on the couch. Doing that, I can enjoy all the online games with a more or less level playing field. Imaginge having some people use KB/M in those games - I'd be more or less forced to use them as well, if I'd want to have a chance of survival. Even if I would, I'd be at a hopeless disadvantage to the more hardcore gamer sitting at a desk and playing the game with KB/M infront of a monitor.

Splitting up rooms is problematic as well - it ultimately splits the online userbase in two. If KB/M should ever be supported, this would be the best alternative though, seeing that advantage KB/M offers is huge and will make the game unplayable for anybody participating using a controller.

It's understandable that KB/M users are frustrated having to use an inferior controller to FPS. Give it some time and practise and you'll become better. :smile:

 

[dskneo]

not assuming at all. Its from experience. I'm a sim racer since 2003 and FPS player since 1999 (guess what game )



edit: like i said earlier, uber-arcade games or sims with helps activated shortens the distance and in many cases gives the edge to the controller. Although theres a reason i don't call those games "racing games" at all.

In LFS for example, you simply cannot compete with a joystick against a wheel, even if helps are activated.

 

[fallguy]

Apples and potatoes. The size of the display has no appreciable effect on the game experience, if you could only see a % of what the person could on the larger display you might have a point.

Its fine to allow multiple input devices if the developer wants to take the time to balance them properly.

Sure it does. Not everyone sits 15' away like you've claimed. Most living rooms, dens, whatever, are not 15' from TV to couch/chair. 8'10' is more like it. Not everyone has the cash to spend on a HDTV. Especially kids who play in their room. Where admitingly, they are generally closer than 10'. The fact is, you can see things much more clearly in HD. And as Joshua said, there are several other variables. There are so many different setups, you wont have a level playing field.

Balance them properly? You mean, dumbing them down. Most games already have an autoaim of sorts, because you simply dont have the control with the gamepad, that you do with a kb/m. If everyone is afforded an option to use one, then there is zero reason to cry foul. Even the cheapest setup would be better than a gamepad, and cheaper than buying a second. Not only that, it would help much more when browsing the net, or doing whatever else with the console, other than gaming. Navigating the PSN store with a controller sucks.

 

[Phil]

I think no one is directly suggesting that the level playing field is equal in all cases. I think the point was rather, the level playing field between a person using a wheel and a controller in a console game is close enough - as is the level playing field between someone using a SDTV and someone else using a HDTV. The level playing field isn't as close anymore, once you have KB/M users battle against others using nothing but the controller.

Obviously, not everyone places the line at the same spot, but I do think the level playing field in most cases is rather leveled out and balanced.

 

[D3v0ur3r]

"it's acceptable, because the advantage offered is not all that big and hasn't been an issue in online-multiplayer thus far."

Well Phil. I disagree that the Wheel isn't a "big" advantage over the controller for racing. Its not as "big" as the KB/M is over the controller but at the same time I would never say its not "big". Like many have stated you can fine tune a lot easier as well as most wheels will give back info of the track & car as well as other cars effecting your car. Much easier to gauge & adjust for. As well as its a lot easier to maintain lines on a track. Nascar racing like 2008 is a good example I would say. Its night & day for me.

At any rate. We obviously disagree about the degree of advantage. I think the only reason its not split online is because I would guess the amount of Wheel players is minute in comparison to just about any other genre and flight sims even more so. Wheels are made & used online with a console to a (I would bet) lesser degree then a KB/M would be used with a console. & as I've stated many times, the advantage factor of a KB/M over a controller would be nill if the players running a server had the option to filter out either controller. When UT3 hits the shelves for the PS3 I will more then likely allow both the KB/M vs. Controller unless the KB/M feels pretty well gimped. If Epic can make this work there will be no more reasons that every other Dev shouldn't allow the KB/M on the PS3 & MS should change there tune as well. Yet again the couch issue is moot. Wireless KB/M & a stiff mouse board makes the couch issue ridiculous. If the player would choose either way it should be there option to do so.

 

[sir doris]

I haven't read all this thread but I don't see as you can compare a KB & M with a wheel on a console.

The comparison has to be per game but I think there are very few titles (if any on a console) where a wheel would be a serious advantage.

On the PC sims (rFactor/ GT-R/ LFS), yes you need a wheel to get the most out of them and if you are playing on-line you will be at a disadvantage. This is because these games are not forgiving of mistakes and people playing with wheels are generally pretty serious = lots of practice.

Console racing games on the other hand are:
A) More arcade like - thus much more forgiving, allow you to brake around corners, etc...
B) Designed to be played with pads, so have all sorts of aids on by default.

Even playing GT4, using the wheel doesn't make you much faster, however it makes it more involving/ better experience.

Does anyone know if GT4 has aids for pad control, for example trying to catch a slide you just push the pad the other way and the game will adjust the amount of lock in the given direction (within boundaries) to keep the car on the black stuff? Feels like it

In fact I would say some racing games would actually be easier with a pad as you could do direction changes MUCH quicker.

Where as to make a pad on par with a KB & M would require some form of auto aim.

Some console FPSers are easier for a pad due to the limited need to look up/ down or behind regularly.

Overall IMHO a KB&M offers a much larger advantage over a pad in FPSers than a wheel does in racing games.

 

[D3v0ur3r]

I think you may want to read the entire thread.

 

[Mintmaster]

I don't think many people are even aware of this (almost forgot it myself), but actually when studying this I discovered that the d-pad on the PS2's controller, like many of the other buttons, can be read both analog and digital, and it is in fact read analog in GT4 if I remember correctly. But obviously in this game it's not mapped 1:1 and there's some definite assists there. But this is the case in more games than you might think.

Yup, I knew about this and took advantage of it. It's not analogue, but rather has 2 different pressure levels (maybe three, but in GT3 I could only discern 2). That's not good enough for 1:1 mapping, though. Imagine if tapping on the D-pad actually instantaneously turned the wheel all the way and then back (incidentally, I remember some Need for Speed games actually doing this, and you could see it in the replay). You'd lose traction all the time. What racing games do is use the pressure levels to control how fast the wheel turns one way or the other. By tapping the d-pad, it the in game wheel sort of hovers around the turning amount you want.

Nope, not in terms of precision and speed. But with all the assists, and depending on the game, who knows?

If by assists you mean things like autoaiming, of course. I guess a dev could try to put a controller on equal ground with KB/mouse that way for shooters. However, the point I was making is that a wheel just doesn't have the advantage over a controller in racing games that a KB/mouse does in shooter, all else being equal.

I'm not saying it's cheating, but D3v0ur3r's analogy is flawed. It is physically impossible for a controller to match the input sequence of a mouse, but it can match a wheel.

 

[Mintmaster]

The over all point is, the Wheel is a rather large advantage against a controller on many racing games & yet its perfectly acceptable.

I disagree that the Wheel isn't a "big" advantage over the controller for racing. Its not as "big" as the KB/M is over the controller but at the same time I would never say its not "big".

I don't think you've been paying attention. Look at what Arwin and I have been saying.

The wheel is not an inherent advantage in racing games. It is more intuitive if you don't have the dexterity necessary to move a thumbstick as precisely as needed, particularly if you drive, but the controller is capable of everything that the wheel is.

KB/M is in a whole other league of input advantage over a controller, especially for shooters.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Balance them properly? You mean, dumbing them down. Most games already have an autoaim of sorts, because you simply dont have the control with the gamepad, that you do with a kb/m. If everyone is afforded an option to use one, then there is zero reason to cry foul. Even the cheapest setup would be better than a gamepad, and cheaper than buying a second. Not only that, it would help much more when browsing the net, or doing whatever else with the console, other than gaming. Navigating the PSN store with a controller sucks.

There's no reason to cry foul if the kb/m advantage is weakened either. I'm not talking about dumbing down, I'd just suggest weakening kb/m. Limited turning speed and some aiming shake or something (that would actually be more realistic, as much as I try in real life, I can't turn around in 1/60th of a second).

Not everyone wants to have a kb/m set up in their living room, and they shouldn't be relegated to fodder just because of that.