CD prices officially dropped. It's about time.

[Joe DeFuria]

Since when do liberals care about the law, when there is personal gain at stake.

I agree with most of your argumentation and I do disagree with Natoma as the thread developed towards the end. But that comment was quite silly.

Yes, it was silly, as it is the "stereotypical" liberal. The fact that Natoma's view on piracy fits this stereotype to a tee just makes it amusing.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

As I said, I want to know what I'm buying before I buy it. Software cannot be returned once it's been used.

I'll give you one guess as to WHY software (typically) cannot be returned once it's opened.

You open a game, it's yours forever, even if it's terrible.

That's right.

And this same internet age which allows you to download music allows you to seek out other's opinions on the product, and e-mail the vendor and ask specific questions before you buy it.

You pay for some spyware program and it sucks, your money is gone forever.

Yup, so what you are saying is that you value a product more if it has a trial of sorts...or you value a retailer who's willing to accept opened software.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Other than you breaking the law, that is.

 

[Natoma]

As I said, I want to know what I'm buying before I buy it. Software cannot be returned once it's been used.

I'll give you one guess as to WHY software (typically) cannot be returned once it's opened.

That was a statement, not a complaint. I know why software cannot be returned once it's been opened, obviously.

You open a game, it's yours forever, even if it's terrible.

That's right.

And this same internet age which allows you to download music allows you to seek out other's opinions on the product, and e-mail the vendor and ask specific questions before you buy it.

I've found game reviews to be helpful at times, and at other times completely off base wrt my own personal opinion, which in the end is all that matters when it comes to my dollars.

You pay for some spyware program and it sucks, your money is gone forever.

Yup, so what you are saying is that you value a product more if it has a trial of sorts...or you value a retailer who's willing to accept opened software.

I accept that retailers will not allow returned software unless it's defective. However, if a product does provide a fully functioning trial (usually the case these days) then I take advantage of that to try the product. If I like it I purchase it. If I don't, I remove it from my system.

OTOH, if a software maker doesn't provide a fully functioning trial and simply requests that you purchase their software, as I said before, I have no issue providing myself with my own trial period with the software. After a couple of days using it, I either remove the software from my machine or I purchase it outright. Either way, I will get my trial period with the software in order to determine if I truly want it on my system.

That makes me a thief? So be it. I'm a thief. And I have no issue with that.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Do you really think Ferrarri would be more successful mass producing cars for $20,000?

Actually this is almost always true, i.e. mass producing cheaper cars = more money.

Looks like Natoma isn't the only one needing some economics courses. Your assessment would only be true if there were no competition. In reality, moving to a cheaper lower margin market segment almost always means increased competition. Many, many businesses have gone under trying to sell their products/services for less than the competition.

For an example, look to the high end audio market. Cables priced in the tens of thousands, speakers in the hundreds of thousands... Were any of these companies instead try to mass produce their product and sell it for a "fair" price, there would no longer be anything to distinguish them from the hundreds of other manufacturers in that market segment.

As you pointed out, name recognition will only last you so long, unless you become the champion of the mass market segment.

Often you'll see a company sell their product for much more than it costs to produce (Bose) because they want it to be associated with higher value, not "cheap" (which it really should be).

But if you really believe otherwise, go tell Ferrarri. I'm sure they'd hire you as a CEO on the spot!

 

[Sxotty]

You don't have the right to use their product. You don't have a right to "reasonable" prices. All you have is the right to purchase it on their terms.
Your pathetic attempts to justify your theft ring hollow. I won't say they fall on deaf ears, because an astounding amount of Americans feel the same way you do.
But again, its just them trying to justify their thievery.

Russ I respect your thoughts b/c they seem like thoughts and not sensless rhetoric that is regurgitated from another source.

Let me say one thing in regards to this.

Many people feel that the music industry is itself corrupt, they feel that the gov't does not bother to reign in their illegal actions due to bribes and so forth, this does not make stealing suddenly morally correct,( but since morals are either A) determined by something previously decided upon ala the 10 commanments, or B) determined by a group)

This perceived corruption makes people not feel guilty, and the intangibility of the object, stealing a cd from a store is something, and there are costs associated with it, a recording has the costs that went into the mixing, and production but not the actual materials.

Personally I will admit to stealing them if that is what you want to call it, but then I give them back by deleting them, so think on that, if you download a song and buy the album did you steal it? Maybe but since you have the album, it is no longer stolen. If you delete it, it is also no longer stolen.

In another example a song is on the radio, or a music video is on MTV, but due to its predetermined unpopularity you do not get to hear it and you download it listen to it and delete it. You might think it is stealing, but the experience is no different than what the record companies approve of, it is simply at a different time.

So could we have the time self-destruct files that have been so popularly attributed to solving this mess?? I am not sure b/c people could of course hack them.

That is why I personally find this a bit less clear cut than many individuals make it out to be. I believe that although it is possible to view things in a black and white clear cut sort of worldview it is not an accurate assesment.

Thats all

 

[Joe DeFuria]

That was a statement, not a complaint. I know why software cannot be returned once it's been opened, obviously.

Of course you're complaining about it. And you now what, I'm complaining about it too. Your complain is implicit in the fact that you go throguh the trouble of pirating software to try it out.

My complaint isn't directed at retailers / IHVs though...it's toward people like you who pirate which forced their hand.

I've found game reviews to be helpful at times, and at other times completely off base wrt my own personal opinion...

Yes, just as this pertains to every sinlge other product on the market, such as automobiles. You might get a test drive at a dealership, but you generally don't get to buy one and take it home for 30 days, use it like you want to, and then take it back if you're not satisfied.

...which in the end is all that matters when it comes to my dollars.

Exactly. Selfish. Because it's not just your dollars at stake...it's my dollars and the company's dollars.

I accept that retailers will not allow returned software unless it's defective.

Because of pirates....

 

[DemoCoder]

Natoma, what was the last PC game that you bought which did not require a CD key to play online? What about the last utility/application?


Wanna know why stores don't accept open games? You'll find out the next time you go to play online and find your CD key already in use.

 

[Natoma]

Natoma, what was the last PC game that you bought which did not require a CD key to play online? What about the last utility/application?


Wanna know why stores don't accept open games? You'll find out the next time you go to play online and find your CD key already in use.

I understand why stores don't take software back after it's been returned, as I said before. That's why I don't buy software from stores unless I'm absolutely sure I want it. It was a statement I made to show why I ISO software before purchasing it. Not a complaint.

 

[Natoma]

That was a statement, not a complaint. I know why software cannot be returned once it's been opened, obviously.

Of course you're complaining about it. And you now what, I'm complaining about it too. Your complain is implicit in the fact that you go throguh the trouble of pirating software to try it out.

My complaint isn't directed at retailers / IHVs though...it's toward people like you who pirate which forced their hand.

I've been buying computer games for almost two decades now, and at no time during that time was I ever able to take computer software back to the store once it's been opened, unless it was defective. So you're going to blame someone like me who tries out a piece of software before buying it for that policy? Ok.

I've found game reviews to be helpful at times, and at other times completely off base wrt my own personal opinion...

Yes, just as this pertains to every sinlge other product on the market, such as automobiles. You might get a test drive at a dealership, but you generally don't get to buy one and take it home for 30 days, use it like you want to, and then take it back if you're not satisfied.

You must not be going to the right dealerships. I know quite a few in NYC (for instance the one that my mom bought her Hyundai from 10 years ago, and then the one she bought her toyota echo from two years ago) that allow you to test drive for a week provided you have good credit and offer collateral. But that's not the point. Even a test drive with the dealer in the car is better than none at all and is generally allowed to give you a good sense of how the car handles, which besides the layout of the features you can customize, is one of the most important things you can directly affect at purchase time. The point is, being able to test the product is built into the system.

That is not always the case with music or software.

...which in the end is all that matters when it comes to my dollars.

Exactly. Selfish. Because it's not just your dollars at stake...it's my dollars and the company's dollars.

Their dollars are at stake for me trying out software before I purchase it to make sure I want it? Hell if I want it I always buy it, and if I don't, I delete it from my machine. How is the company losing money? Oh because they don't get my money unless I know it's a good product for me? If that's the case, then . I understand fully what product I'm getting and they get my money if it's a good fit for me. Everyone wins.

I get products I like and weed out the ones I don't. They get my money as recompense for those products I use.

I accept that retailers will not allow returned software unless it's defective.

Because of pirates....

That's prime reason why I don't purchase my games and software from local retailers until I've gotten a chance to try a beta of it out, or ISO it myself. There are rare instances where I'll go out and purchase a game without having played it, because I trust the quality from the software maker (HL2 is an example as I have it pre-ordered), but on the whole I know exactly what I'm buying before I buy it.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

I'm going to go a bit OT here and out on a limb. Natoma's attitude is precisely why I have a problem with social programs and liberals in general. For all their chest thumping about taking the moral high ground in helping out their fellow man, the underpriveledged, the needy, preaching about the disparity between the rich and poor and the need for equality, condemning large corporations as innately greedy and evil, when you get to the bottom of it they often are very selfish at the core.

This, IMO, is the distinguishing feature of socialism. While on the surface it proclaims that it is all about "what the system can do for everyone," it's champions have the hidden attitude of "what the system can do for me."

"Fair" to a liberal has a very curious and mysterious meaning.

 

[Natoma]

Thanks for the laugh BD.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Thanks for the laugh BD.

Yes, amazing how the truly funny things in life have a ring of truth to them, isn't it?

 

[Natoma]

Thanks for the laugh BD.

Yes, amazing how the truly funny things in life have a ring of truth to them, isn't it?

Not at all. Many times it's the things that are completely absurd that bring a bout of laughter to me.

 

[Sxotty]

Do you really think Ferrarri would be more successful mass producing cars for $20,000?

Actually this is almost always true, i.e. mass producing cheaper cars = more money.

Looks like Natoma isn't the only one needing some economics courses. Your assessment would only be true if there were no competition. ...
As you pointed out, name recognition will only last you so long, unless you become the champion of the mass market segment.
....
But if you really believe otherwise, go tell Ferrarri. I'm sure they'd hire you as a CEO on the spot!

B.D. simply looking at your name is absurd it is kind of hard to take anything you say seriously. And you cant blame it on your parents for choosing your name so...

In any case exactly as I said Ferrarri would make tons of money if they mass produced crappy cars, but as I also said it would not be sustainable. So in the long run it is a bad idea, I fail to see how you missed that point, it seems you grasped it but then you end up saying that I should tell ferrarri to follow this self destructive policy if I believe it would make them money. Shortsighted stupid management is a very big problem for companies in the US, they pay CEO like Carly Fiorina incredible salaries to do exactly what you suggested I do, come in make short term decisions to boost profits, and also boost their own stock options, while at the same time virtually assuring the destruction or detriment of the company they are supposedly helping. If I had a good resume perhaps I could go sell stupid short sighted ideas and become incredibly rich.

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

Natoma,

In response to Bigus Dickus:

Natoma's attitude is precisely why I have a problem with social programs and liberals in general. For all their chest thumping about taking the moral high ground in helping out their fellow man, the underpriveledged, the needy, preaching about the disparity between the rich and poor and the need for equality, condemning large corporations as innately greedy and evil, when you get to the bottom of it they often are very selfish at the core.

I do see his point, and I would have to agree with it. I am a conservative and I feel that often times conservatives are portrayed as greedy bastages that favor rich companies over the common man. Often times leftists portray themselves as the more moral caring group more interested in the common man.

From what you have told me, you are not offered music in the fashion that you want so you feel you are justified in stealing the music you want. Stealing is selfish. It seams hypocritical that leftists tell connectives that they are selfish and only interested in big business at the expensive of the average Joe when they themselves are stealing and being selfish.

Just do the right thing. It doesn't matter how hard or easy it is, just do the right thing. It also doesn't matter how likely you are to get caught or not, just do the right thing. Stealing is selfish. Stealing is wrong. Simple concept, hard to put into practice especially when it is so easy.

Dr. Ffreeze

 

[Natoma]

You know, I'm not going to get into the conservative/liberal finger pointing because frankly this will go on for days, and doesn't serve this discussion at all.

We have around 3000 mp3s in our collection, roughly 2500 of which we burned from our purchased CDs. The other few hundred are singles that we've downloaded or got from our friends (for instance I have three Tears for Fears songs that I got from my co-workers CD collection. He let me borrow his CD and burn those few tracks to 320K MP3). When the services finally provide bitrates that are supported by the mp3 compression utilities as opposed to just 128K, then we'll ante up for the mp3s we have that did not come from our CD collection, as we do in every other case.

We do the same thing with tv shows. I'll download episodes of Stargate, The Simpsons, et al. Yes, I could purchase the VHS cassette, but that is not what I want to spend my money on. When the season DVD comes out, I purchase it. There's a reason why we have over 250 DVDs in our collection.

The bottom line is I'll pay for what I want. I see downloading music as no different than getting a satellite radio, hooking it up to my stereo, and digitally recording the music I want, or taping a broadcast of a tv show and keeping it for my own personal use rather than paying the $19.99 to purchase a recording of the show, ex: any nature show you see on PBS for instance. I also see it as no different than renting a movie from Blockbuster before deciding if you want to purchase a DVD.

You think it's selfish to do this. I don't. You think it's stealing to do this. I don't.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

The bottom line is I'll pay for what I want.

In addition, you also steal what you want.

I also see it as no different than renting a movie from Blockbuster before deciding if you want to purchase a DVD.

What "rent" do you pay to the IP / copyright owners of the music and software that you pirate?

What "rent" are you paying to the copyright owners of those 500 songs you have obtained illegally?

You think it's selfish to do this. I don't.

Exactly our point. You don't think it's selfish.

And whether or not it's selfish, there is no dispute that it's illegal. So you have no respect for the law...at least those laws that are an inconvenience to you or your wallet.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Oh, and I almost forgot:

When the services finally provide bitrates that are supported by the mp3 compression utilities as opposed to just 128K, then we'll ante up for the mp3s we have that did not come from our CD collection, as we do in every other case.

Wrong.

What if

1) Services never emerge for those tracks
2) Those services are offered, but cost "more than you think you should have to pay."

What happens when high bit-rate MP3s for your songs come out, and they charge is $15 a track?

There's a reason why we have over 250 DVDs in our collection.

My, for someone so criticial of "the rich" and not giving their fair share "back to the community," you seem to waste an awful lot of money on stuff that serves no purpose but your own personal entertainment. Surely, this is a sign of your selfishness if nothing else...

 

[Natoma]

I pay no more rent for music and software than I pay for shows I tape off the air, even though they ask that if you would like a copy of this show send $19.99 for a VHS or DVD. I do however pay for the software or delete it after trying it out. The same will go for music soon enough. Why? I've long since contacted the online services regarding bitrate quality and they have all stated that they will have this available most likely by the end of this year, or early next year. Your examples of $15 a track and the comments about my dvd collection are really ludicrous.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I pay no more rent for music and software than I pay for shows I tape off the air, even though they ask that if you would like a copy of this show send $19.99 for a VHS or DVD.

Sure, because it's not illeage to tape shows over the air.

I do however pay for the software or delete it after trying it out.

But you don't pay to rent that software while you are doing so. It's NOT the same as going to a Blockbuster and renting a video before you buy it. When you rent, you are PAYING for the time you use it. When you pirate, you don't.

Presumably, those 500 MP3s you have ripped or downloaded illegally provide some value to you...because you have them. Yet, you have not paid one dime for them.

The same will go for music soon enough. Why? I've long since contacted the online services regarding bitrate quality and they have all stated that they will have this available most likely by the end of this year, or early next year. Your examples of $15 a track and the comments about my dvd collection are really ludicrous.

Nah...you just prefer not to consider the consequences of your actions, and you also underestimate the nautre of supply and demand. When the "really popular" tracks start going for significantly higher than the millions of other "shit" tracks, you'll complain that it's "not fair that it costs more", and pirate it just the same...