Can Wii achieve the same level of Xbox's Doom3?

[pc999]

There is some images of SH in IGN, it seems quite good and the lighting is per pixel, thought one cant say to much about shadows.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Which is what I already said - ie. Art>Tech.

Let me clarify, then: There's more to lighting technology than shadow volumes. Video games are 100% tech. If a game produces images on the screen, it's using technology to do it. It's never, "Oh, this game just uses art, and this game uses technology." If a game looks good, it's because the artists are using technology well. Even if you're talking about an old SNES game--having 256 colors to play with instead of 16 or 64 is still technology.

"More" or "less" technology on roughly equivalent machines (like the PS2 and GC) requires pretty detailed knowledge of the code. It's also really difficult to quantify. I mean, I'd feel safe saying any given Xbox 360 game has better technology than any Wii game, but a PS2 vs a GC game? That's not an easy call to make--there are a whole lot of subtle uses of technology that your average user doesn't even notice (until the port comes out, like when RE4 came out on PS2, or playing Metroid Prime 2 on a GC emulator that doesn't support indirect texturing).

 

[ninzel]

I have a slightly different view on defining what is "better technology" .
To me technology is defined as "better" is if it better at getting the hardware to do what it is capable of,and the closer you get to maxing that out, the better the technology is.
Porting over a last gen game to 360 for example,that doesn't really push the system is less better than creating innovated solutions to making a Wii game look better than expected. Even if the end result of the ported over 360 game might still look better.
Edit: To be more clear,I think there is a difference between "better technology" in terms of creating a solution to solving a problem and simply more "advanced" technology.

 

[swaaye]

Having enjoyed many an argument about "how hard a game pushes a console", I've decided that all that really matters is whether or not the game impresses or not. It's all about bringing the technological tricks together in a way that pleases people, after all. The folks involved in most of these discussions base their opinions off of visual eye candy, not whether or not the game has ridiculously ingenious assembly loops or the best shader code known to mankind. Most people wouldn't be able to appreciate relatively intangible nuances like that anyway.

It's kinda tough to judge software on its overall platform utilization without fancy profiling tools, too.

 

[sfried]

You know, it disturbs me that a couple of Kotaku guys are quoting this thread...I feel that these people might just repeat the entire argument all over again rather than read the posts (points at Kotaku reply "The Wii isn't more powerful. If you want an in depth discussion...led by actual programmers go [to Beyond3DForums]").

 

[Boxercide]

You know, it disturbs me that a couple of Kotaku guys are quoting this thread...I feel that these people might just repeat the entire argument all over again rather than read the posts (points at Kotaku reply "The Wii isn't more powerful. If you want an in depth discussion...led by actual programmers go [to Beyond3DForums]").

It disturbs you that I pointed uninformed people to here (a place frequented by experts on the subject)? Why?

You can only give people true info. What they do with it from there is outside your control.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

It disturbs you that I pointed uninformed people to here (a place frequented by experts on the subject)? Why?

You can only give people true info. What they do with it from there is outside your control.

He said they're quoting this thread. My guess is he's thinking people cherrying picking quotes from this thread to make their argument. We don't know whether they linked to this thread or whether people actually bothered to read through the entire thread. I can actually imagine a pretty ugly mess as well.

 

[Richard]

As much as I can appreciate (not) a good drama over whether some people I don't know over at the other corner of the internet are having an ignorant discussion, let's try and keep this discussion focused on the Wii, XBOX-level DOOM3 tech, etc. shall we?

 

[pc999]

Let me help.

So if stencil shadows (D3) does have a lot of stress in the CPU with more polys what other technics could be used in SH to cast shadows in and from every snowflake?

 

[Urian]

You can´t use id Tech 4 directly on Wii because the architecture of the GPU even being very effective and able to put the same graphics than NV2A it runs differently and the results would be more worse.

Doom 3 is possible on Wii but making a new engine fully optimized for the console that is able to put the same level of graphics or better, we have seen it with The Conduit and High Voltage needed a big amount of time.

If if would make a game for Wii I am sure that they would use an improved version of id Tech 3, perhaps the one used for games like ROTW and the first Call of Duty but I don´t see them making an engine from 0 for the Wii.

 

[idsn6]

So if stencil shadows (D3) does have a lot of stress in the CPU with more polys what other technics could be used in SH to cast shadows in and from every snowflake?

The SH screens look like they just use a simple projected texture.

 

[sebbbi]

So if stencil shadows (D3) does have a lot of stress in the CPU with more polys what other technics could be used in SH to cast shadows in and from every snowflake?

Stencil shadows are completely incompatible with alpha mask based shadows, as you need to have real polygon geometry to generate the shadow volume. Modelling each snow flake (or tree leaf, grass blade, plant, etc) using polygon precise geometry would be a terrible waste of processing power (and memory). This is one of the main reasons stencil shadows haven't been used in outdoor games that much.

Shadowmaps handle slow flakes and other alpha mask based shadow casters very well (if the map resolution is high enough). And if you want to have transparent shadow casters, with some z-buffering tricks you can have additional transparency modulation channel in your shadow map (or an extra RGB shadow modulation texture like Starcraft 2 for example uses for it's transparent particle shadows). We are also using this kind of technology in the particles and other transparencies in our forthcoming game. It also handles snowflakes very well. This kind of transparent shadow rendering can be also done on Wii, but on a much more limited scale compared to PS3 and Xbox 360 (one main sun light with a medium resolution shadow map would be very much doable).

 

[pc999]

Thanks for the info.

 

[sfried]

New Darkside Chronicles trailer:

What truck me was this claim IGN made:

First things first, it is a very pretty game and, although some way short of the glitz of current-gen visuals, it features all manner of graphical trickery - from HDR and SH lighting to global illumination and other specialised filters - that do raise the title above the typical technical finesse of other Wii games. For instance, in the opening moments of our demonstration, impressive fire effects cast shifting red highlights across the environment, while glowing embers danced in the air. Elsewhere, characters display a significant increase in definition and detail - particularly your on-screen companion - and cast real-time shadows which, in a nice touch, disappear completely in the blinding flash of your muzzle.

IGN has a better quality/framerate video but lacks some dialogue for uncertain reasons. (The entire clipped is subtitled for that matter. I guess it was a very rushed cut to get press material out in time?)

 

[Mobius1aic]

Saw some pictures of the new REUC2 game, pretty impressive for the little underpowered white box. I like the bounciness of the camera, gives it a proper on the fly feel. But in regards to Doom 3, there are very different things going on as far as graphics go. It's not shadows-centric like Doom 3 is, but there definitely is some bump mapping going on there (hard to see it, but it's their) and the polygon fill is pretty high, like in RE4. I think Capcom pretty much nailed down most of their techniques for the Wii in developeing RE4 on the GC (just take into account more memory and higher fillrates). And now it's nice to see actual dynamic shadows in game (soft shadows at that!). I must also note how well constructed the geometry is, which I think is vastly overlooked at times in creating realistic humans in games. The Conduit for example may be employing all sorts of "advanced techniques" but the actual artistry of the geometry and animations looks kinda like ass (doesn't mean it won't be fun!). Capcom seems to have character/NPC modeling down to a science that in many cases looks better than characters in many 360 and PS3 games. My kudos to the RE development team.

 

[Iron Tiger]

The Conduit for example may be employing all sorts of "advanced techniques" but the actual artistry of the geometry and animations looks kinda like ass (doesn't mean it won't be fun!).

I happen to think the animation rocks in The Conduit. Every time I'm scrutinizing videos for normal mapping and specular effects, I get distracted by how well the characters are animated. IMO, it's right up there with Naughty Dog's best (at least on PS2).

 

[Mobius1aic]

I happen to think the animation rocks in The Conduit. Every time I'm scrutinizing videos for normal mapping and specular effects, I get distracted by how well the characters are animated. IMO, it's right up there with Naughty Dog's best (at least on PS2).

Oh, it looks like alot of fun. Very reminiscent of the original Half Life in terms of style of play and look. But the animations still seem kinda just ......"meh"

 

[sfried]

I'm not quite sure why we made this the general Wii graphics thread, but the new interview with High Voltage over The Conduit's engine does shed some new light (no pun) about how they pull off normal maps in the engine:

IGN: Is Wii really capable of true normal-mapping? Is that feasible in-game?

Scott: Yes, absolutely. Our artists create tangent space normal maps and apply them to models just as you would for any other platform. Our tools compress them into Wii specific formats and the renderer uses them for advanced per-pixel lighting, reflection, and refraction. At first we in ATG were concerned about the performance of these techniques on the Wii but found that it was capable of far more than we initially expected. Not only were we able to do normal mapping but we implemented a full unified lighting model that allowed for true per pixel lighting calculation from many dynamic lights, combined with radiosity light maps, and a projected texture light (more to come), on complex multitexture materials with detail mapping, UV animation, specularity, color gloss maps, HDR and much more, all in a unified configurable pipeline. The key was our engineers experience and understanding of the underlying mathematics and physical principals of light and rendering. We were able to remap standard rendering techniques to the unique hardware in the Wii in a way that allowed maximum flexibility, but we didn't stop there. We developed several new Wii hardware specific tricks and techniques like Dynametric Light Tightening, Reframbriance, and ¡Approxiflexion! that contribute to The Conduit's performance and unique graphics style.

Eric: The techniques our artists use to generate their art assets are functionally identical. They create high resolution meshes in Zbrush to generate normal maps which are applied to lower resolution game models.
...
Scott: The Wii may not have a programmable shader unit but it does have very flexible and powerful multitexturing abilities. A solid understanding of the Wii texturing hardware is prerequisite for just about any advanced graphics technique you will implement on the platform.

 

[Nano]

We developed several new Wii hardware specific tricks and techniques like Dynametric Light Tightening, Reframbriance, and ¡Approxiflexion!

My fave part

Anyway, I'd love to see the technology stretch to other games and genres, perhaps even other developers. See how they utilize it differently and to make something a little special compared to most Wii titles.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Reframbiance is the graphical technique that will define this generation. ;-)