Can Wii achieve the same level of Xbox's Doom3?

[Statix]

I'm not sure how that can be fact. If iD have a specific aim, they usually achieve it by some means. Sure many of their console games weren't that impressive for the time they released, but Doom3 pushed the envelope even in a toned down form on Xbox, particularly in the lighting/shadowing area. And Rage as we can already see is pushing the envelope in certain areas too. If iD software set out to do a technically advanced game to look better than anything on Wii (which Carmack pretty much said he'd attempt if making a game here), knowing their expertise and current efforts on the platform, there is little reason to believe iD wouldn't do something a bit special.

Correction on that point, Vicarious Visions is the company that deserves the credit for developing D3 on Xbox (one of the best PC-to-console conversion jobs we've seen prior to this generation)--not id. id historically hasn't had the pedigree of extreme to-the-metal console optimization to eek out the most juice out of a piece of hardware (except maybe way back on the SNES with DOOM?) like, say Guerilla or Epic does. That's not to say they can't or won't do it with Rage, but there's no solid examples in the past to indicate that they're masters of optimization and pushing the envelope in the console space.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

although this will never be with real normal mapping or other effects that were only possible in the xbox1 doom3 version.

What?

The discussion is now" can it make an effect that looks like normal mapping under very specific circumstances...

Huh?

Have you even been reading this thread? It's been LONG established that the Wii can do normal mapping way before The Conduit was revealed. Konami got normal mapping on Dewy's Adventure on the Wii. Not to mention there was some minor Conduit discussion that appeared.

 

[Nano]

Didnt knew that, any more info you can share?

Well a cube tech demo was posted here recently showing off a huge texture used in an environment. I think Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance used some form of megatexture, and a couple more engines, titles out there have demoed the idea of a single texture.

As for Wii, ID Tech & Megatexture, Carmack suggested here

Actually cant recal many midleware engines that can use Wii more that the trivial things. Or that are optimised for Wii. Meybe that is just my fault

Unity Engine Wii for one has optimized its ShaderLab system specifically for Wii. That said, I can't come up with an impressive list of multi-plat engines that push Wii specific features that far, despite there being quite a few...

Remember Resident Evil 4? Look what happened to Nintendo there.

Besides, Nintendo's getting Monster Hunter 3 (ok, probably get screwed a la RE4) next Tales game, Dragon Quest X, and a couple of other brand new made for Wii games from Japanese devs.

This still doesn't show to me that Nintendo made a good attempt to get third parties to take the gamecube platform as seriously and spend money on it. There weren't even versions of big titles like Max Payne, Mace Griffin was another title where they didn't even bother to make a cube version despite sales potential, and there were titles like MK & Tomb Raider that were very reluctantly ported and in confined territories. That's just the multi-platform scene, little came in the way of exclusives.

Nintendo didn't make nearly as much of an attempt to show their platform was 'worth it', especially compared to MS & Xbox who were the new comers with no previous userbase and struggled to get developers on their side initially. In fact despite a good start and even a few sales records, by 2003 it felt like they had just about given up to me. Less than half the predicted sales was partly attributed to a lack of 3rd party relations & deals amongst other things.

Subsequently, Factor 5 were just about the only company to push the envelope in Wii technology and shaders.

To an extent things have changed on Wii from a 3rd party perspective, but that's a whole n'other story and comes back to some of the current issues often discussed.

 

[Nano]

Correction on that point, Vicarious Visions is the company that deserves the credit for developing D3 on Xbox (one of the best PC-to-console conversion jobs we've seen prior to this generation)--not id. id historically hasn't had the pedigree of extreme to-the-metal console optimization to eek out the most juice out of a piece of hardware (except maybe way back on the SNES with DOOM?) like, say Guerilla or Epic does. That's not to say they can't or won't do it with Rage, but there's no solid examples in the past to indicate that they're masters of optimization and pushing the envelope in the console space.

Perhaps not, but I'd still like to stress its a little narrow-minded to take the ''if we haven't seen it, its not possible'' type of perspective. We could say the same about Crytek (who unlike iD have never released a console title), yet they still have amazing potential to squeeze out something spectacular from the consoles and believe they can.

As I mentioned earlier, if iD have a specific goal or wish to push the possibilities, they usually manage it. We 'could' expect much from them on Wii if we so wish (considering Carmacks comments and the current landscape of Wii title's technology), despite the fact they haven't necessarily been at the forefront of console development. Its all about possibilities and likelihood. Its more likely "iD can do it!!11" than 'another studio' who may not give a second thought to the best possible technology. I wouldn't even say people's use of iDs name through this thread is in vein, more an expression of their hopes given the context and the game we're discussing.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

Nintendo didn't make nearly as much of an attempt to show their platform was 'worth it', especially compared to MS & Xbox who were the new comers with no previous userbase and struggled to get developers on their side initially. In fact despite a good start and even a few sales records, by 2003 it felt like they had just about given up to me. Less than half the predicted sales was partly attributed to a lack of 3rd party relations & deals amongst other things.

That's the thing, Nintendo did in fact pursue 3rd parties. You probably don't get my Resident Evil 4 example. Back in 2002 or 2001, Nintendo paid Capcom promised 5 exclusive Gamecube games. They were Dead Phoenix, PN03, Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe, and RE4. Eventually, Capcom screw Nintendo over in the entire deal. Dead Phoenix got canned, and the other 3 came out on PS2. Hell, Capcom announced RE4 PS2 just a week or so before the GC release just to stifle sales of the GC version.

I don't know about you, but after something like that, I don't see why Nintendo would bother with these exclusive deals.

 

[Nano]

That's the thing, Nintendo did in fact pursue 3rd parties. You probably don't get my Resident Evil 4 example. Back in 2002 or 2001, Nintendo paid Capcom promised 5 exclusive Gamecube games. They were Dead Phoenix, PN03, Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe, and RE4. Eventually, Capcom screw Nintendo over in the entire deal. Dead Phoenix got canned, and the other 3 came out on PS2. Hell, Capcom announced RE4 PS2 just a week or so before the GC release just to stifle sales of the GC version.

I don't know about you, but after something like that, I don't see why Nintendo would bother with these exclusive deals.

Looks like a single example to me. I sure do remember that Capcom fiasco as it were and the incredibly late arrival of RE4 (which may have had better impact in the heat of competition around 2 years earlier).

Quite frankly, things don't necessarily have to go that way. We can draw examples from other platforms, where an exclusive really was an exclusive, and you know some of them turned out to be really good, successful titles that pushed their respective platforms both on launch and in critical holiday seasons.

A failed investment, isn't at all implicit that all investments are therefore a failure. Nintendo especially should consider this as a major, international games company.

 

[Dargakis]

What?



Huh?

Have you even been reading this thread? It's been LONG established that the Wii can do normal mapping way before The Conduit was revealed. Konami got normal mapping on Dewy's Adventure on the Wii. Not to mention there was some minor Conduit discussion that appeared.

i mean normal mapping like in doom3

 

[Betanumerical]

i mean normal mapping like in doom3

What is doom3 doing differentally with its normal mapping compared to every other game released with it?.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

i mean normal mapping like in doom3

Doom 3 normal mapping is the same as the normal mapping used on the Wii. High Voltage even clearly said their normal mapping is made the same way it's made as the PS3/360.

Looks like a single example to me. I sure do remember that Capcom fiasco as it were and the incredibly late arrival of RE4 (which may have had better impact in the heat of competition around 2 years earlier).

Quite frankly, things don't necessarily have to go that way. We can draw examples from other platforms, where an exclusive really was an exclusive, and you know some of them turned out to be really good, successful titles that pushed their respective platforms both on launch and in critical holiday seasons.

A failed investment, isn't at all implicit that all investments are therefore a failure. Nintendo especially should consider this as a major, international games company.

But I gave you examples in the previous reply. They are getting huge exclusives.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on paying others to make games for you console vs companies willing to make games for your consoles. Look at companies like High Voltage again. They're doing everything they can to please fans with their exclusive game. Nintendo didn't have to pay them, they're more than happy with make games on the Wii, and willing to listen to fan feedback to make it the best they can. It juts feels more natural to me.

Also, another example is Overlord Dark Legends for the Wii. Even though the Wii isn't getting the sequel, they're still getting a full game that is developed specifically for the console by very enthusiastic people. Just read some of the interviews and you can see that. They're not paid to exclusively make a game, they're doing it out of love.

 

[pc999]

Well a cube tech demo was posted here recently showing off a huge texture used in an environment. I think Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance used some form of megatexture, and a couple more engines, titles out there have demoed the idea of a single texture.

As for Wii, ID Tech & Megatexture, Carmack suggested here

Unity Engine Wii for one has optimized its ShaderLab system specifically for Wii. That said, I can't come up with an impressive list of multi-plat engines that push Wii specific features that far, despite there being quite a few...

Thanks, I will see that.

But I gave you examples in the previous reply. They are getting huge exclusives.

Still those games/devs arent big enough to have as much impact as a id/Valve/... game. A exclusive game from Valve based on HL franshising would sell millions of
consoles and garante that there is a market for others FPS after, the same can be said for a "real" RE# game among others.

They can win such market by having "several The Conduits" (if it turns as good as we expect), but it will take much more time/marketing and probably as much money. Althought gamers/gaming win with "several The Conduits" IMO.

 

[Fafalada]

Doom 3 normal mapping is the same as the normal mapping used on the Wii.

Wii's HW accelerated path has input restrictions as mentioned several times over in this thread (ie. you can't do local lights with it). Running Doom3 shading boils down to how many per-pixel DOT3 products your hw can calculate, and the answer for Wii is - not as many as XBox.
But as also already pointed out - if you don't just port-over the tech but get creative, there are alternatives that can approximate similar look.

 

[Nano]

But I gave you examples in the previous reply. They are getting huge exclusives.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on paying others to make games for you console vs companies willing to make games for your consoles. Look at companies like High Voltage again. They're doing everything they can to please fans with their exclusive game. Nintendo didn't have to pay them, they're more than happy with make games on the Wii, and willing to listen to fan feedback to make it the best they can. It juts feels more natural to me.

Also, another example is Overlord Dark Legends for the Wii. Even though the Wii isn't getting the sequel, they're still getting a full game that is developed specifically for the console by very enthusiastic people. Just read some of the interviews and you can see that. They're not paid to exclusively make a game, they're doing it out of love.

They are and largely because the market is unavoidable on Wii. What I was really targeting is the Gamecube. Its not even just about paying a huge cheque for exclusives, but the overall relationship and understanding between the 1st and 3rd parties.

How an architecture like the TEV seems elusive to many and has seen few engines with specialized code to get fancy shaders out of it after 8/9 years is a shock. But its not like the overall GC strategy influenced developers to push the envelope on their platform. Their focus was almost completely on in-house games, how well they could do and how they could possibly push platform sales with lesser regard to big simultaneous releases or 3rd party properties.

I think its fantastic the Wii's seeing exclusives just because companies want to make them, but when it comes to engine tech (following the earlier context) the bit of blame I put on Nintendo is the fact they didn't push the predecessor's credentials into the limelight all that time ago and its not like they'd go to any length now, considering their new strategy. That said, I still think its ultimately down to the 3rd parties whether they push the platform or not, I still find it a bit of a joke when some say Wii ''can't do bump mapping'' or ''can't do shaders'', simply because they don't want to explore a slight architectural difference.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

Wii's HW accelerated path has input restrictions as mentioned several times over in this thread (ie. you can't do local lights with it). Running Doom3 shading boils down to how many per-pixel DOT3 products your hw can calculate, and the answer for Wii is - not as many as XBox.
But as also already pointed out - if you don't just port-over the tech but get creative, there are alternatives that can approximate similar look.

I meant that normal mapping is normal mapping. There's no other normal mapping as far as I know. It doesn't matter the hardware or how your achieve the results, they are still normal maps.

 

[pc999]

Wii's HW accelerated path has input restrictions as mentioned several times over in this thread (ie. you can't do local lights with it). Running Doom3 shading boils down to how many per-pixel DOT3 products your hw can calculate, and the answer for Wii is - not as many as XBox.
But as also already pointed out - if you don't just port-over the tech but get creative, there are alternatives that can approximate similar look.

For a D3 like game what kind of alternatives would you sugest?

I meant that normal mapping is normal mapping. There's no other normal mapping as far as I know. It doesn't matter the hardware or how your achieve the results, they are still normal maps.

I think he is pointing that it is very ddiferent a game like D3, where you have several lights, among "advanced" animation/physics and a game like Dewy's Adventure. Even PS2 (the Matrix game IIRC) can do normal mapping if you put enough pass on it, just to slow for most games and you need to cut enought features for it.

 

[Squachy]

Lets throw a little fuel into this fire shall we?
You may or may not konw, Capcom announced Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles, basically a sequal to Umbrella Chronicles. Amidst all the backlash from fans, te graphics in this title seems to have been overlooked. They are SIGIFICANTLY better compared to UC and some of the shots (likely touched up) look like CGI, but seem to be in fact in-game (since they appear to be directly from the trailer).

Does this add a whole new perspective in how Wii games can look, and how it handles bump mapping or even high poly models??
http://wii.ign.com/articles/962/962316p1.html

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

All the good looking parts are not ingame.

 

[fearsomepirate]

What is doom3 doing differentally with its normal mapping compared to every other game released with it?.

What makes Doom 3 look different is the stencil shadows everywhere. Normal mapping by itself is not that thrilling--it's really D3's highly dynamic lighting engine that made it pop.

 

[Fafalada]

What is doom3 doing differentally with its normal mapping compared to every other game released with it?.

Normal maps are just input data. What is done with that data DOES differ in pretty much every other game(unless you believe every game lighting/shading looks the same, in which case, this whole topic is pointless to begin with).
And likewise, there's a difference in what different pieces of hw could afford to do with it in PS2 generation.

 

[Squeak]

Thinking about embossing: Couldn't you just use the technique to "open" the "direction/normal" of the texture with one single shift, while "overdoing" the bumps appropriately so small and big ones will get the same amount of "opening" with the same shift, and then use vertex lighting or a lightmap to decide how much each bump should be lit or attenuated?

This would overcome some of the disadvantages of embossing. You'd be able to achieve a rounded look perpendicular to the gradient of the vertex light.

 

[Urian]

I´ve just read an old article about Doom 3 in a magazine and it seems that the main feature of the graphics isn´t normal mapping, the main feature is stencil buffer.

Knowing that the 2MB of Framebuffer embedded inside the GPU I want to ask something to you

Is it possible to use tile rendering for giving more space to the stencil buffer?

I am asking this because we know that going to the eDRAM would be less clock cycles than using the main RAM for this effect.