Can The PS3 Save SONY?

[TheChefO]

Free online play and game services (if we believe Sony) is something that Xbox owners do not have. The other hardware features all contributed incrementally to better games. Finally PS3 exclusive games such as Heavenly Sword looks promising.

If "as a gamer, those things mean nothing to you", then my recommendation for you would be: Don't buy a PS3. Further explanations would be pointless since you can't see the value and I'm not a sales person.



Not really. A DVD is a commodity today. Every laptop/PC has one. I don't see where you're coming from ?

Free on-line play is compelling if done right, however this remains to be seen how well they execute as any service that is truly free has generally not been very good. They may go down the route of game ads but I'm quite sure if they do MS will not sit idle and will match the offer. Hence $200 for nothing. Exclusives are exlusive to each platform. Assuming a gamer values the exlusives of each platform equally how would they justify the additional $100-$200 for ps3? I'll wait till it hits $150 and consider "hmm ... ps3 or xb720 ...". Yes I'm cheap and impatient.

Regarding dvd it is an established format that is satisfactory where most people that want one have one. I'd say the same thing for Ipod wouldn't you?

 

[patsu]

how are those advantages over 360? from what I've seen you can save pics/music from usb connected devices...

Huh ? They are just minor convenience/utilitiy features. Who says anything about advantages over 360 ? Xbox 360 has 3 USB ports, PS3 has 4 (keyboard, mouse, EyeToy, headset and god knows what). A separate x-in-1 card reader, USB connection to digital camera takes up 1 more USB port.

Some may hate to plug/unplug their USB cables, or reach for the back of the console. People might not have extra USB cables (or hate to have too many cables sticking out). Does that constitute any strategic advantages ? :|

They are present only in the high-end PS3. A memory card reader like this costs only a few dollars at retail (like 1 USB cable). It should be very cheap when bundled.

Like I said, it's the OS and bundled software that will make these hardware features shine. No one knows what's going to be available yet.

Free on-line play is compelling if done right, however this remains to be seen how well they execute as any service that is truly free has generally not been very good.

Free is free (You can save 200 dollars in 3-4 years, and don't have to pay annual tax to MS). PC online games, player match and game communities has been around for ages.
You still have to deal with rogue players, net ethnics (or the lack of), or even bandwidth issues in Xbox Live today. At least in some PS3 games like Resistance, you can also set up private games.

Network play on PS3 is open and developers can experiment with different models to suit their games.

They may go down the route of game ads but I'm quite sure if they do MS will not sit idle and will match the offer.

Sony has mentioned that they are keen to explore premium content sales to survive. If they also implement online currencies, they can also earn interests from the float.

In general, these are not our problems. We can't stop companies from trying different ways to cover their cost/make money, including charging for USD600 up-front (for the hi-end model) to cover some of those startup cost.

If I were Sony, I may also enable Playstation Network for PS2 and PSP players at cost, to encourage sales of online content.

Hence $200 for nothing. Exclusives are exlusive to each platform. Assuming a gamer values the exlusives of each platform equally how would they justify the additional $100-$200 for ps3? I'll wait till it hits $150 and consider "hmm ... ps3 or xb720 ...". Yes I'm cheap.

To each his own. Please do whatever you deem fit. Personally, I am fine paying some premium for, IMHO, more interesting and varied games, plus other PS3 applications that I see coming.

The Playstation is an Entertainment System (not just a game console) to me. I can find real use for many of the discussed features, even if not all of them are realized. We should all wait for the official announcements before jumping to conclusions.

Regarding dvd it is an established format that is satisfactory where most people that want one have one. I'd say the same thing for Ipod wouldn't you?

Bundling a DVD player has different effects from bundling an iPod or a Blu-ray player. We can't just throw anything on the plate and expect people to eat it up. All I know now is developers are pioneering use of Blu-ray today. If it saves good developers time to make better games, load games faster, store multiple language tracks on 1 disc, etc. I'm all for it.

I am an early adoptor.

 

[TheChefO]

Huh ? They are just minor convenience/utilitiy features. Does that constitute any strategic advantages ? :|

yes - worth $200 to me? no

Free is free (You can save 200 dollars in 3-4 years, and don't have to pay annual tax to MS).

There was free online play with box before live as well to those that knew where to look for it but that doesn't mean it was good or preferable. Sure it's nice that it's free but you can't say "look its free on ps3 so thats $50/yr savings!" because they're not yet proved to be equal services. and like I said this isn't something that MS could not react to and match Sony's online offer at any point in the future.

To each his own. Personally, I am fine paying some premium for, IMHO, more interesting and varied games

Just out of curiosity which games are you refering to? Are they announced games or assumed games (based on ps2's library)?

The Playstation is an Entertainment System (not just a game console) to me. I can find real use for many of the discussed features, even if not all of them are realized. We should all wait for the official announcements before jumping to conclusions.

I can apreciate that and to users like you it is a bargain. To people who just game on their consoles I think they might need some further convincing.

If it saves good developers time to make better games, load games faster, store multiple language tracks on 1 disc, etc. I'm all for it.

Agreed - as long as it doesn't cost $200 more. The better games thing will have to be proven - as of yet I see no evidence and certainly nothing directly related to BR.

I am an early adoptor.

me too ... with limitations

"Cheap" and "impatient" kinda force a mix there of my early adopter desires and fiscal responsibility.

 

[patsu]

yes - worth $200 to me? no

No one ever say it's worth $200 to you. You have to make that call, perhaps after knowing the full picture. It may sound like I'm trying to convince you, but in reality I'm only answering to your questions.

In general, the price is set based on the values one derives from it, not individual components.

There was free online play with box before live as well to those that knew where to look for it but that doesn't mean it was good or preferable. Sure it's nice that it's free but you can't say "look its free on ps3 so thats $50/yr savings!" because they're not yet proved to be equal services. and like I said this isn't something that MS could not react to and match Sony's online offer at any point in the future.

Free is free. People may be comfortable with a basic online gameplay. Whatever MS provides on top is to justify for the continuous payment. Different people have different expectation. Some may not be comfortable with an open-ended subscription model. Some may think USD600 for PS3 is too expensive at launch.

I'm just answering to your questions of what could be in the 200 dollars (beyond just the Blu-ray player). Actually, don't you need to add the cost of a bundled DVD player (if Blu-ray player is not included in a PS3) ? But I digressed.

Just out of curiosity which games are you refering to? Are they announced games or assumed games (based on ps2's library)?

Heavenly Sword, Lair, MotorStorm, Afrika, EyeToy, MGS, Resistance, Japanese stuff (I hope they release more liberally to the US with online distribution), full backward compatibility with PS2 games (I still have not played GOW, Shadows of Colossus and MGS3) and believe it or not, I'm curious to see some Blu-ray movies.

I can apreciate that and to users like you it is a bargain. To people who just game on their consoles I think they might need some further convincing.

Sure. There are a limited number of PS3 at launch anyway.

 

[compres]

Heavenly Sword, Lair, MotorStorm, Afrika, EyeToy, MGS, Resistance, Japanese stuff (I hope they release more liberally to the US with online distribution), full backward compatibility with PS2 games (I still have not played GOW, Shadows of Colossus and MGS3) and believe it or not, I'm curious to see some Blu-ray movies.

Arent those games very similar to old crap(ops, guess to me they are) already released on the ps2?

 

[patsu]

Arent those games very similar to old crap(ops, guess to me they are) already released on the ps2?

You are probably over-generalizing. But I will say...

Depends on your personal judgement. To me, Heavenly Sword is breathtaking; EyeToy is a first of its kind; MotorStorm's violent movements provides a different experience; Afrika and MGS are different from other nextgen games I have seen so far, etc. etc. Even the PS2 games like GOW, Shadow of the Colossus are hardly mundane.

 

[compres]

I was really hoping the ps3 came with linux standard and a keyboard+mouse. All standard, meaning all consoles. I guess I got the wrong idea from Ken's statements.

The fact that they wont include those standar tells me 2 things:

1. They were all just PR crapping when they said the ps3 was a computer.
2. I wont enjoy fps on the ps3 since if it's not standar in every ps3 it wont get developer support.

Too bad for them. I don't think I am the only one who thinks so. Lost customers for them.

That said I don't plan to buy any other console either, unless the wii wand comes out to be the best thing since sliced bread for fps control.

 

[patsu]

Hmm... If this is what you need, then I feel Microsoft's future move may interest you more as they consolidate Windows and Xbox 360 gaming.

As it stands today, Sony PS3 is an independent living room creature. I'm not privy to any Sony plans but I doubt they will make any significant inroad going the PC way. At this point, I think only Epic claimed mouse and keyboard support for UT2007.

Generally, I also prefer a simple user experiences (i.e., No setup, can get to media or games quickly without lengthy reboot). For the sake of existing console users, I hope it stays that way with all the hype about Minority Report UI, 4D world, ...

 

[standing ovation]

Can the failures really be attributed to Sony's engineering culture, or is it a failure for multiple groups to work coherently together ?

It's both actually.

Individualism, one of the tenants in Sony's original business plan (1946), pervades corporate culture today. Within this self-serving environment collaboration in and among divisions is unheard of.

The problem is exacerbated by the company's own self-image. Sony still thinks of itself as an electronics company -- despite financial reports that scream otherwise. Hence, efforts to nudge the company closer to its cash cow have been for naught.

IMHO, the highlighted Sony engineering culture may not be the culprit.

That's just it.

Sony Corp. executives are, in all likelihood, former Sony Electronics engineers. They are a nostalgic lot that aren't too keen on business.

[size=-2]"Sony is a schizophrenic company in many ways. It is a giant, vertically-integrated electronics company on one hand, and a producer of movies and TV shows and music on the other. The electronics business is 59 years old, while the content business is about 20, so in the eyes of Sony old-timers, electronics is the heart of the company. Certainly, 80 percent of Sony's capital goes to support the electronics business. Too bad that 80 percent generates only 60 percent of the company's sales and less than half of its profits. Any business school student would identify in a moment this mismatch and call for drastic cuts on the electronics side. But while there have been some cuts in recent years, Sony has spent much more effort trying to emulate the Microsoft model of creating and controlling de facto technical standards and turning them into money machines -- an effort that has not been particularly successful."
– PBS[/size]​

 

[rabidrabbit]

how are those advantages over 360? from what I've seen you can save pics/music from usb connected devices...

Can you? I mean I'm not familar with the latest updates to the xb360 OS, but it used to be you could only stream music from usb memory.
Pics you have been able to always transfer to xb360 HDD, but not music (or videos?), or am I wrong.

Not that I'm saying the PS3 would be any different, as it might also restrict you from transferring other than photos.

 

[Guden Oden]

I was really hoping the ps3 came with linux standard and a keyboard+mouse. All standard, meaning all consoles. I guess I got the wrong idea from Ken's statements.

Look, guy... If you expected the PS3 to come with mouse + kbd in every box, then that probably says more about you than it does about sony.

It's never been announced that they will do this, never been announced they plan to do this. Heck, it's never been announced they even consider doing it! Don't blame them for your own rampant speculation and wishes, thanks.

 

[patsu]

It's both actually.

Individualism, one of the tenants in Sony's original business plan (1946), pervades corporate culture today. Within this self-serving environment collaboration in and among divisions is unheard of.

Just to name an example...

PS3 crosses media, electronics and software space. So whether people have heard of "collaboration amongst Sony divisions" or not is moot. Major Sony divisions seem to stand behind this little machine even though it will take time to consolidate efforts and resolve differences.

While we are at it, for such a large organization, it may not make sense to expect everything to fall in line too (e.g., BDROM vs digital distribution are 2 different trends along 2 different timelines. Even though they are both on PS3, someone has to juggle their plans along these 2 directions)

Read the MS's "Opening the Xbox" book, they have the same problem too. It's common in a large corporation. No one is saying Sony is perfect, it has its own set of challenges, but that's hardly different from anyone else. Until the day the writer can balance his/her doom and gloom views with Sony's unique opportunities and strength, the article is just a litany of complains

The problem is exacerbated by the company's own self-image. Sony still thinks of itself as an electronics company -- despite financial reports that scream otherwise. Hence, efforts to nudge the company closer to its cash cow have been for naught.

Been there, done that. Every industry has its ups and downs. The important thing is to prove your worth and sustain where others have failed. Quoting numbers at certain point in time means very little until you can demonstrate that the other divisions have unique fundamentals that guarantees an evergreen prosper. This is usually done by weathering storms. ;-) MS has the benefit of a monopoly. Even Apple has to innovate out of (but still leverage on its strength in) computer businesses.

I have seen many execs from large companies, and professors from business schools that failed miserably in startups because they can talk but cannot deliver. Sony is successful as a large electronics company, and that alone cannot be underestimated.

Sony is a conglomerate. As long as each group looks after their interests and collaborate on selected key projects for collective gains, it will survive. Complains will be there as proofs that they are trying to work together (If they are not, there won't be frictions anyway).

Sony Corp. executives are, in all likelihood, former Sony Electronics engineers. They are a nostalgic lot that aren't too keen on business.

If this is the case, will they last that long ? Many execs have egos larger than their businesses too. The important thing is can they or do they contribute positively ? I'm sure Howard Stringer is on it. We'll just have to count on his team to execute.

[size=-2]"Sony is a schizophrenic company in many ways. It is a giant, vertically-integrated electronics company on one hand, and a producer of movies and TV shows and music on the other. The electronics business is 59 years old, while the content business is about 20, so in the eyes of Sony old-timers, electronics is the heart of the company. Certainly, 80 percent of Sony's capital goes to support the electronics business. Too bad that 80 percent generates only 60 percent of the company's sales and less than half of its profits. Any business school student would identify in a moment this mismatch and call for drastic cuts on the electronics side. But while there have been some cuts in recent years, Sony has spent much more effort trying to emulate the Microsoft model of creating and controlling de facto technical standards and turning them into money machines -- an effort that has not been particularly successful."
– PBS[/size]​

So what is new ? Sony is a conglomerate.

There are many role models to get your inspirations from. Toyota for QA (alright they slacked a little lately), IBM for their ability to tap on IP/patents (ok, their global services got into many troubles with clients recently), MS for its worldclass developer support (Where^H^H^H^H^H When is the new OS ?), Apple for its business simplicity (What happens if Steve die ?), and Sony for their innovations (Can you guys stop quarrelling ? and stop putting stuff on my CDs).

Look to the bright side to see where you want to go. Look at the dark side to remind you where the holes are. You can't look at the dark side to see where you should/want to go. This article seems to be doing just that.

 

[standing ovation]

PS3 crosses media, electronics and software space. So whether people have heard of "collaboration amongst Sony divisions" or not is moot.

I've got an old cell phone. It doesn't have a lot of the features new ones have. And I suspect future mobiles will have even more.

That PlayStation 3 delves deeper into the tapestry of technology isn't too surprising. What is surprising is the way it seems to be going about it. Rather than absorb current standards and technologies (like most electronic gadgets do), it seems poised to inject new ones.

 

[compres]

Look, guy... If you expected the PS3 to come with mouse + kbd in every box, then that probably says more about you than it does about sony.

It's never been announced that they will do this, never been announced they plan to do this. Heck, it's never been announced they even consider doing it! Don't blame them for your own rampant speculation and wishes, thanks.

Guy...?

What exactly does specting a personal computer(as they claim) to have a mouse+kb say about me?

Blame them for my RAMPANT speculation and wished? WTF...?

I don't know if you had a bad day but I wont take any of your crap attitude. Nothing in my post deserved such an asshole like reply.

 

[compres]

Hmm... If this is what you need, then I feel Microsoft's future move may interest you more as they consolidate Windows and Xbox 360 gaming.

As it stands today, Sony PS3 is an independent living room creature. I'm not privy to any Sony plans but I doubt they will make any significant inroad going the PC way. At this point, I think only Epic claimed mouse and keyboard support for UT2007.

Generally, I also prefer a simple user experiences (i.e., No setup, can get to media or games quickly without lengthy reboot). For the sake of existing console users, I hope it stays that way with all the hype about Minority Report UI, 4D world, ...

Well is there any better way to play FPS and RTS? With the constantly changing PC hardware one has to plan a budget just to keep up. Considering the high price the PS3 seems targeted for the PC gaming crowd. Besides why would a 500-600usd package not include these? If the ps3 had those they could win many PC gamers and they could justify the whole "it's a PC" crap and the high price.

 

[patsu]

I've got an old cell phone. It doesn't have a lot of the features new ones have. And I suspect future mobiles will have even more.

That PlayStation 3 delves deeper into the tapestry of technology isn't too surprising. What is surprising is the way it seems to be going about it. Rather than absorb current standards and technologies (like most electronic gadgets do), it seems poised to inject new ones.

Is PS3 not a sign of how Sony divisions attempt to collaborate ? And yet the article and you claimed that Sony folks do not work together ?

As for PS3 not absorbing current standards and technologies...

Can traditional CPU handles game console load at low price, low heat and low power requirements ? If so, why are MS and Nintendo using custom CPUs ? For better or worse, Cell PPU reuses IBM PowerPC technologies doesn't it ?

Is RSX a new invention or is it based on an existing and popular PC GPU platform ?

Is Linux not an existing platform ?

Is Dual-Shock 3 new ?

Does PS3 invent a new Hi-Def standard or does it leverage on existing ones like Blu-ray and HDMI ?

Doesn't PS3 use PC removable hard disks, USB, Blue-tooth and WiFi ?

etc. etc.

Conversely, MS injects a new GPU architecture for Xenos ? Is that really a bad thing ?

I don't understand. Why are you taking potshots at Sony ?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

You are probably over-generalizing. But I will say...

Depends on your personal judgement. To me, Heavenly Sword is breathtaking; EyeToy is a first of its kind; MotorStorm's violent movements provides a different experience; Afrika and MGS are different from other nextgen games I have seen so far.

How much do we actually know about these games?
Ofcourse PS3 will have excellent games, and games on that list will quite possibly be good games, but I must say that in general you should know more about something to get that excited over it.

 

[RobertR1]

The PS3 will sustain Sony as it'll keep the flow going that the PS2 had built up. It's blu ray that they're banking on. We'll see how it all shakes out. Blu Ray can't really help the PS3 (the Playstation name is powerful enough as is) but it can certainly hurt it.

Why can't it help, you ask? The PS3 for a quite some time will be at an ethusiast level. Couple that with a high price, low avaiablitily and it'll be sold out. Now these users could opt to buy BR discs (which studios are hoping for) and give BR a good push or they could not and simply use their PS3 for gaming.

By the time the PS3 gets the necessary price cuts to reach mass consumer level and if BR is still doing strong, we'll see cheaper/mainsteam stand alone BR players. Sure, BR will still be part of the PS3 but the stand alone CE devices will be in households and more desirable. So all BR has done is shotgun off the PS3 to sustain enough interest and build a userbase until stand alone players can come down in price and do their thing.

Now if BR flops or simply gets relegated to a niche format, then Sony are stuck with having BR costs subsidized into the PS3 with no way to recover it from BR sales. What this does is extend the time needed to profit from the PS3 (if you add the BR losses into the PS3's economic forecast).

Someone might have mentioned all of this but alas I did not read the whole thread

 

[patsu]

Well is there any better way to play FPS and RTS?

This is a very good question ! I never thought of it that way.

My personal feeling is that current dual-analog stick approach is good enough while people slouch on a couch to play FPS. A mouse and keyboard combination provides better accuracy and speed but the posture may not be suitable for the living room (where most PS3s are).

As for RTS... While I love Starcraft and Warcraft, I also cannot imagine myself playing it over a mouse and keyboard in the living room (for the same reason above).

Nevertheless, I agree that if PS3 can provide better controls for FPS and RTS, I think it'd be a great differentiator. This is a separate question from whether PS3 is a computer though. But I see your point better now. ^_^

Unfortunately, the way it is, I feel that MS's more likely to address your calling at the moment because it also owns PC gaming. And hopefully with hardware powerful enough, people are not obliged to upgrade (i.e., if the basic hardware support is good enough for most games).

How much do we actually know about these games?
Ofcourse PS3 will have excellent games, and games on that list will quite possibly be good games, but I must say that in general you should know more about something to get that excited over it.

Not much ! But I was refering to my personal judgement, and especially the variety of the games shown so far. Although there are exceptions (e.g., Table Tennis), most of the nextgen themes I saw are the usual gangsters, muscular space marines, WWII type, hack-n-slash, etc., ...). I'm getting quick sick of 'em. That's all. Also the full compatibility with PS2 games provide a safety net and further variety for great games.

Now if BR flops or simply gets relegated to a niche format, then Sony are stuck with having BR costs subsidized into the PS3 with no way to recover it from BR sales.

Agree. Hopefully the games will be able to fully exploit Blu-ray by then. Also the number of gamers may be sufficient to lower the manufacturing cost further.

In their financial model, there is also the HDD cost to overcome too. Sony should have done its own math to decide whether they are worthwhile bets. I do not know the numbers.

But as mentioned before, they may be part of the moves to consolidate their business investments. So Sony execs may see strategic reasons to do so (i.e., Otherwise, the content divisions will try to "waste" their annual budget trying to explore digital distribution and nextgen format independent of PS3. This may cost Sony even more as a whole).

Note that I'm not saying BR will definitely fly. I'm just thinking that they may be inherent advantages for Sony to execute that path (which we outsiders are unaware of). But agree that it's risky business nonetheless.

 

[dizietsma]

The PS3 is starting to remind me of the FX5800U ... too much of a jump for the hardware to live up to....