BR/HD-DVD Thread

[London Geezer]

Yes just like how people bought PS2 to watch DVDs because it's a slightly cheaper DVD player without a remote control with poor DVD movie compatibility and shoddy build quality. Heh they saved a couple of bucks right?

But isn't that the argument we hear all the time, that people bought the PS2 over the Dreamcast because of the DVD capability?

Yeah but now it's more convenient to deny that story. That's how it works around here.

 

[wco81]

Maybe he means MS will make an announcement about their own standard, the XMSHD-DVD, to be used only on the Xbox2.

And we'll have 3 formats, the BR shelf, the HDDVD shelf, and the XMSHD-DVD shelf!!! Yay!!! :?

PC-Engy did state "HD DVD".

If there is an MS HD format, their codec will be in all three. Now how will this turn out?

Actually, there are "HD" formats being pushed by China. Foreget what it was called but the specs are inferior to BR and HD-DVD. They are using WMV exclusively, no MPEG 4 H.264. They pointed out that the license is 10 cents for WMV compared to 25 cents for H.264. And even more for MPEG 2. So it may not even be backwards compatible with DVD if they didn't license MPEG 2.

 

[-tkf-]

Actually, there are "HD" formats being pushed by China. Foreget what it was called but the specs are inferior to BR and HD-DVD. They are using WMV exclusively, no MPEG 4 H.264. They pointed out that the license is 10 cents for WMV compared to 25 cents for H.264. And even more for MPEG 2. So it may not even be backwards compatible with DVD if they didn't license MPEG 2.

EVD?

I think this will be the Pirates choice.. if we get cheap players around the world...

HD on DVD with HD Light quality...

 

[cthellis42]

Actually, there are "HD" formats being pushed by China. Foreget what it was called but the specs are inferior to BR and HD-DVD. They are using WMV exclusively, no MPEG 4 H.264. They pointed out that the license is 10 cents for WMV compared to 25 cents for H.264. And even more for MPEG 2. So it may not even be backwards compatible with DVD if they didn't license MPEG 2.

EVD isn't using WMV exclusively either, but (unless it has changed since I last follow it) a proprietary format developed by another company (which is supposed to show results similar to H.264) called VP5 and VP6. I think for the most part it's going to end up splintering China and some of the other far east markets from the rest. They've had other splintering effects before (like LD and VCD succeeding out there much more), but never really anything that stood in the way of other technologies--the mainly had addidional niches and more halfway steps. (Not going straight from VHS to DVD.) If enough muscle is put behind EVD, however, it may keep Blu-Ray or HD-DVD from expanding in those markets.

However, since it's hard to find the full specs on EVD anyway, and how it will compare to BR or HD-DVD, it may get edged out eventually on the technical end. Or it simply may make for a lot more years before the global media market converges.

 

[randycat99]

Yes just like how people bought PS2 to watch DVDs because it's a slightly cheaper DVD player without a remote control with poor DVD movie compatibility and shoddy build quality. Heh they saved a couple of bucks right?

But isn't that the argument we hear all the time, that people bought the PS2 over the Dreamcast because of the DVD capability?

Yeah but now it's more convenient to deny that story. That's how it works around here.

[offers wooden chair to PC-engine] Care to take a load off while the paint dries?

 

[PC-Engine]

Also what does Xbox2 have anything to do with HD DVD??? Has it been confirmed that Xenon will incorporate HD DVD? Trying to act cute isn't going to strengthen your argument nor increase your intelligence for that matter.

Well you seem to think its a sure thing.

From Xenon CES thread:

MS will make an announcement about HD DVD and Xenon at CES...

Now don't tell me MS will make an announcement NOT to have HD-DVD was what you had in mind?

You didn't think I was serious did you?

The purpose of that statement was to get people to wonder which seemed to have worked.

Yes just like how people bought PS2 to watch DVDs because it's a slightly cheaper DVD player without a remote control with poor DVD movie compatibility and shoddy build quality. Heh they saved a couple of bucks right?

But isn't that the argument we hear all the time, that people bought the PS2 over the Dreamcast because of the DVD capability?

Yes that's one of the arguments and one of the factors.

Other factors being DVD region free initially, PS1 backwards compatibility, and 66 million polys/sec hype. It's not rocket science...

[offers wooden chair to PC-engine] Care to take a load off while the paint dries?

Nah I don't need it since I wasn't the one who thought GCN could'nt do 10.5 GFLOPS (Gekko CPU+TnL on FLipper) and tried to prove that GS in PS2 also had GFLOPS (even thought TnL is done on EE) that would need to be added to EE's 6.2 GFLOPS therefore equaling or surpassing GCN's 10.5 GFLOPS

GCN = 10.5 GFLOPS
PS2 = 6.2 GFLOPS

No need to retort to triangle setup GFLOPS if such a thing even exists.

 

[randycat99]

Yes, you do appear to need one (since you are unaware). This is entirely independent from what discussions may or may not have occurred in an entirely unrelated topic (nice try, tho). Just so you are on the same page, this topic is about HD-DVD and BR, not PS2 or GC. That said, have a seat already.

 

[Jov]

You didn't think I was serious did you?

The purpose of that statement was to get people to wonder which seemed to have worked.

Mate, I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago....

 

[PC-Engine]

You didn't think I was serious did you?

The purpose of that statement was to get people to wonder which seemed to have worked.

Mate, I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago....

Gee that's funny because a long time ago I was exactly the same.

Now back to the topic. Considering that HD movie capability will be one factor and not the biggest factor to get people to buy PS3s, and considering only SONY and MGM movies will be in BD format while other studios will be supporting HD DVD, and considering PS3 will be a poormans HD player with no remote included, and considering PS3 will not offer region free playback in PS3, and considering BRD movies will come out later than HD DVD movies, and considering HDTV penetration isn't going to be like SDTV penetration (100%) back when PS2 launched with DVD, how is BR in PS3 going matter in the BRD/HD DVD war?

 

[Ty]

Yes that's one of the arguments and one of the factors.

I'm sure it was one of the factors. I was just trying to understand your statement as it seemed you were discounting the potential draw that inclusion of BR playback might have to the 'average' consumer. But I wasn't sure if you were discounting it or reaffirming it.

If you were discounting it, then I wonder how much you think DVD inclusion helped PS2 sales. Next question would be, do you think BR inclusion will help to sell more PS3s more or less than DVD-playback for the PS2. Finally why you believe there will be a greater or lesser difference.

*edit* - I see you've answered some of this below.

Other factors being DVD region free initially, PS1 backwards compatibility, and 66 million polys/sec hype. It's not rocket science...

For the 'average' consumer who bought a PS2 I don't think region-free capability mattered much. Backwards compatibility I think was definately a good marketing point as was the hype surrounding it ("Oh lookee, it can't be exported to certain countries because it's sooo powerful").

Lastly, will you once and for all try to act your age? I certainly wasn't being snarky in my question to you so it'd be nice if you grew up a bit.

 

[PC-Engine]

No problem, I thought you were being sarcastic...anyway the DVD region codefree movie capability during the Japanese launch of PS2 IMO had a nice domino effect on PS2 sales. At the time, all the standalone DVD players on the market were only for that particular region. You couldn't play region 1 movies on any of the other players. Everyone knows region 1 is the most sought after because that's where Hollywood blockbusters are released first. Without this region free incident, PS2 would've been relegated to just a poormans single region DVD player less remote which IMO isn't that big of an incentive for a person to purcahse one. It was a combination of factors that prompted people to go buy a PS2. I think the main argument from DC backers was the fact people bought PS2 for those little reasons while DC buyers really bought it for the games at the time of PS2's launch. That's why you get the argument about people buying PS2 over DC because of DVD, hype, etc. when it's really the games that should sell game consoles according to that line of reasoning.

 

[-tkf-]

Now back to the topic. Considering that HD movie capability will be one factor and not the biggest factor to get people to buy PS3s, and considering only SONY and MGM movies will be in BD format while other studios will be supporting HD DVD, and considering PS3 will be a poormans HD player with no remote included, and considering PS3 will not offer region free playback in PS3, and considering BRD movies will come out later than HD DVD movies, and considering HDTV penetration isn't going to be like SDTV penetration (100%) back when PS2 launched with DVD, how is BR in PS3 going matter in the BRD/HD DVD war?

So PC-Engine please confirm that you honestly belive that:

There will only be Sony movies on BLU-RAY.
Blu-Ray movies will be release later than HD-DVD (how does this work when there is only Sony movies on Blu-Ray)
And how do you think that Region lock is different on a PS3 than on other players?

And finally.. for the grand final!

How is BR in PS3 going matter in the BRD/HD DVD war?

If you read my post which easily shows how important the PS2 was in the early days of DVD then you can't deny that Sony is going to have the most HD players in play after 2 years of PS3.

Where would you put out your movie? On the market with 17 million players, or the market with 7?

This is based on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray sells as many stand alone players as DVD did, unlikely as you point out, so the PS3 will have a bigger share.

For once it looks like the superior format has a chance of winning, hopefully HD-DVD will die sooner than later.

 

[PC-Engine]

There will only be Sony movies on BLU-RAY.

There will only be SONY movies on Blu-ray when PS3 launches. That's what I believe. It's pointless to guess which other studios will jump onboard if any after lauch so I won't.

Blu-Ray movies will be release later than HD-DVD (how does this work when there is only Sony movies on Blu-Ray)

It works like this:

HD DVD movies will be available in 2005 which is what the studios backing HD DVD are saying. Blu-ray movies won't be available unit 2006.

And how do you think that Region lock is different on a PS3 than on other players?

What are you talking about? It won't be different from other players and it wont be region free like PS2 was inititally.

If you read my post which easily shows how important the PS2 was in the early days of DVD then you can't deny that Sony is going to have the most HD players in play after 2 years of PS3.

Wait so you're saying that PS2 was the sole reason why DVD sales picked up as a result of Hollywood ramping up production to satisfy PS2 users???

You're saying that the benefits that DVD provide over VHS and LD was due to PS2?

You're saying that if PS2 didn't have DVD playback that DVD would'nt have picked up???

You're saying that only as a result of PS2 causing Hollywood to rampup production did DVD drives in desktop and portable computers start to take off?

Where would you put out your movie? On the market with 17 million players, or the market with 7?

Hollywood cares about cost...

Let me ask you this. Using your numbers how many of the 17 wil actually have a HDTV setup? How many of the 7 will have a HDTV setup? The latter is a trick question btw.

They don't care who has more units out on the market, they care about attach ratios as well as costs as mentioned above.

This is based on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray sells as many stand alone players as DVD did, unlikely as you point out, so the PS3 will have a bigger share.

Read above.

For once it looks like the superior format has a chance of winning, hopefully HD-DVD will die sooner than later.

Content decides market superiority just look at the PS1 and PS2. How come I didn't hear you wishing PS1 and PS2 to die considering DC and Xbox are superior respectively?

 

[-tkf-]

HAHA So you think the PS2 was succesfull as a DVD player "because it was region free".

Wait so you're saying that PS2 was the sole reason why DVD sales picked up as a result of Hollywood ramping up production to satisfy PS2 users???

You're saying that the benefits that DVD provide over VHS and LD was due to PS2?

You're saying that if PS2 didn't have DVD playback that DVD would'nt have picked up???

You're saying that only as a result of PS2 causing Hollywood to rampup production did DVD drives in desktop and portable computers start to take off?

Thats 4 trollish remarks.. pretty good, now please show me where i said that?

I posted hard facts, that showed how many DVD players and how many DVD PS2 players there were on the market. Nothing else. Of course you like to ignore facts anyway... so..

Let me ask you this. Using your numbers how many of the 17 wil actually have a HDTV setup? How many of the 7 will have a HDTV setup? The latter is a trick question btw.

I would guess a fair amount of PS3 first adapters would have a HDTV, right now HD has a 7% market "penetration" (nice word), the PS3 will run HD games, HD movies, much more HD content, cheaper HD sets.

Hollywood cares about money, and it's a safe bet that Sony will provide them with a well oiled money platform with the PS3.

Content decides market superiority just look at the PS1 and PS2. How come I didn't hear you wishing PS1 and PS2 to die considering DC and Xbox are superior respectively?

Maybe because they aren't.

If Blu-Ray only got movies that were old and outdated and not worth buying then i would turn to HD-DVD.

I own all consoles btw, DC is nice but nothing compared to the PS2, the XBOX is the most powerfull of them all (overated maybe, but it's amazing what a 32 mb difference can do) but it just can't compete with the PS2 games and i always prefer the PC version over the XBOX version.
I guess the one thing that i hate the most about XBOX is the very "unconsole" attitude to framerate compromise > "good looking".

 

[PC-Engine]

HAHA So you think the PS2 was succesfull as a DVD player "because it was region free".

That's not what I meant. PS2 DVD region free capabilites gave it an instant boost right out of the gate at launch. People knew that this loophole wouldn't last long, so they jumped on the opportunity as fast as they could creating the illusion that PS2 that is a must have. It's kinda like an artificial shortage but not exacly the same since it's time limited instead. DVD players at the time were already prettty cheap but they weren't region free so this was another factor in buying a PS2 instead of a standalone DVD player or computer DVD drive.

Thats 4 trollish remarks.. pretty good, now please show me where i said that?

That's what you're implying isn't it?

I would guess a fair amount of PS3 first adapters would have a HDTV, right now HD has a 7% market "penetration" (nice word), the PS3 will run HD games, HD movies, much more HD content, cheaper HD sets.

Well keyword is early adopters of HD content players which is a small fraction of the PS3 game console buying public. Who will be using HDTVs with PS3 after the small number of early adopters get their units to play on their HDTVs?? I'll tell you, the average Joe with his existing SDTV set. This average Joe is not going to go out and buy a brand new HDTV to replace his perfectly good SDTV just for his games. That's what you call early adopters/gadget freaks.

Hollywood cares about money, and it's a safe bet that Sony will provide them with a well oiled money platform with the PS3.

Not if only the early adopters buy the HD movies.

I own all consoles btw, DC is nice but nothing compared to the PS2, the XBOX is the most powerfull of them all (overated maybe, but it's amazing what a 32 mb difference can do) but it just can't compete with the PS2 games and i always prefer the PC version over the XBOX version.

What I meant was the fact DC is more powerful than PS1 and Xbox is more powerful than PS2, but I never heard you wishing PS1 and PS2 to die while you're wishing HD DVD to die because you say BRD is more powerful than HD DVD.

Anyhow using PS2 as an example is flawed whether you're using facts or not. The facts only say there were a good number of PS2s out there. It doesn't say how much those PS2s were a factor in getting Hollywood to adopt DVD. A good chunk of the DVD players out there are standalone players and computer DVD drives.

If Blu-Ray only got movies that were old and outdated and not worth buying then i would turn to HD-DVD.

So what you're saying is that you're willing to wait how ever long it takes for the other studios to release BR films? What happens when dual format players come out? Are you still going to stick with BR even if some studios stick with only HD DVD?

 

[jvd]

Ps2 didn't drive dvd sales just like the ps3 / xenon wont drive the next format sales .


Look. In 1999 dvds were already taken off . By the time the ps2 came out they had hit mass market and were getting alot of media attention about how fast it was growing and this and that.

The ps2 launched in very small quanitys in 1999 and was still hard to get into 2000.

Not only that but dvd players were already cheap.


In 2005 if the xenon launches with hd-dvd playback support it will most likely be the cheapest hd-dvd player on the market. But that don't mean jack as there wont be more than a few million of them world wide.

In 2006 i'm sure the ps3 will be avalible in limited quanitys too and thus wont do jack for the format.

It wont be for a few years after launch of the systems that they would help out any format .

If they both launch with next gen discs then the first to maket will have the impacted on the market but it would be so slight it wouldn't matter .

 

[-tkf-]

Ps2 didn't drive dvd sales just like the ps3 / xenon wont drive the next format sales .


Look. In 1999 dvds were already taken off . By the time the ps2 came out they had hit mass market and were getting alot of media attention about how fast it was growing and this and that.

The ps2 launched in very small quanitys in 1999 and was still hard to get into 2000.
.

I posted a nice little comparison between DVD and PS2, actual facts.

Since we tend to do nothing here but exchange beliefs it was nice for once to have some more concrete data.

When DVD was 3 years old it had sold 7 million stand alone players.

When the PS2 was 2 years old i had sold 10 million.

What i tried to show with those numbers is that the PS3 could be an even bigger factor, since the HD format will be 3 years old and the PS3 should be around 2 years at that time.

Right now there is actually 81 million stand alone players and 25 million PS2s in the USA. So even today plenty of PS2s are used for DVD playback.

Funny: http://www.gamesfirst.com/articles/jeremyk/ps2dvd/ps2dvd.htm

the hot topic amongst the fellow first-come-first-servers was DVD. None of us doubted the PS2 game system would be hot, but for many people DVD playback was what brought them out to brave hypothermia, and risk social rejection for years to come.

More history: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11_2-513915.html

"If they don't put DVD movie capability into the PlayStation 2, it ultimately costs them money -- there will be DVD movies that won't get sold," he said. That might hurt DVD sales at Sony divisions such as Sony Pictures and Columbia.

And finally: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=2135

That's a fairly significant total; Centris estimates that it translates as 8.6 million PS2 owners (46.5 per cent of the installed base) in the USA, and 1.9 million Xbox owners (54 per cent of the installed base who own DVD kits).

 

[PC-Engine]

And you still keep ignoring the fact every person who buys a DVD player will use it to watch DVD movies while every PS2 owner does NOT use the DVD in PS2 to watch movies and this even with the benefit of 100% SDTV penetration. The same will apply to PS3 but it's even worse since HDTVs are required to watch BRD movies and HDTV penetration isn't even going to be a quarter of SDTV penetration for PS2. You're jumping from A to C without factoring in B since you don't know what B is.

"If they don't put DVD movie capability into the PlayStation 2, it ultimately costs them money -- there will be DVD movies that won't get sold," he said. That might hurt DVD sales at Sony divisions such as Sony Pictures and Columbia.

Well if they made good movies they wouldn't have to depend on SONY fans with PS2s to buy their DVDs.

 

[-tkf-]

And you still keep ignoring the fact every person who buys a DVD player will use it to watch DVD movies while every PS2 owner does NOT use the DVD in PS2 to watch movies and this even with the benefit of 100% SDTV penetration. The same will apply to PS3 but it's even worse since HDTVs are required to watch BRD movies and HDTV penetration isn't even going to be a quarter of SDTV penetration for PS2. You're jumping from A to C without factoring in B since you don't know what B is.

Nope only about 50% as the last url showed.

 

[-tkf-]

Well if they made good movies they wouldn't have to depend on SONY fans with PS2s to buy their DVDs.

I don't understand how you can make so many "funny" remarks and get away with it.