Blue Ray has more momentum than HD-DVD?
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I guess my recollections are wrong.
However, the PS2 was popular in Japan partly because it was cheaper than any other DVD player. So circa 1999 or 2000, it was one of the best-selling DVD players in the world.
Guess DVD reached the mass market around the time of the PS2 launch in the US.
However, the PS2 was popular in Japan partly because it was cheaper than any other DVD player. So circa 1999 or 2000, it was one of the best-selling DVD players in the world.
Guess DVD reached the mass market around the time of the PS2 launch in the US.
Tech can always be prolonged, but the formats need to be there to catch the need on the upswing. HDTVs have been delayed long long enough already, but they're on a decent upswing, and having HD recorders and players will fuel their adoption, which in turn fuels player/recorder sales, which in turn...jvd said:
Dual-layer DVD's can't handle it, so they're preparing what WILL.Offhand I don't think we're going to see much better than 30-50GB disks in the next few years--advancements would probably be more likely along the codec lines (which themselves could be rolled in later on, I suppose--though invariably the uptake is sluggish and doesn't hit mainstream; consider SACD, SVHS...) Companies want to be present at the beginning and help fuel the industry (and of course hope to become a standard), which means they have to be on the ground floor; they're not going to miss out on millions of unit sales (players AND recorders AND the TV's themselves which they invariably make...) and potentially tens and hundreds of millions of media sales by waiting until 2008-2009, where something "much much" better won't show anyway. Just how long has it taken dual-layering DVD's to follow single layers? How would we expect a quantum leap in technology in just a few short years with all the emphasis on what's showing up in the here and now?
Where did anyone say the compression algorithm was designed for HD-DVD?
http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/wcs/leaf/CID/onair/asabt/news/306301
HD-DVD = higher yields and also quicker to make = higher volume = cheaper
And the same can be said for HD-DVD. You think manufacturing of HD-DVD won't get even better, faster, cheaper?
Huh? How will BRD end up costing less than HD-DVD? Also where does it say BRD has a 10% initial cost? Is this with the hard coating??? Where can I find this info?
If WB are not in favor of HD-DVD they would've abstained or voted against HD-DVD, instead they voted in favor of HD-DVD. As a matter of fact, a "Hollywood" exec voiced his frustration over the BRF's tactics of impeding HD-DVD development. I wonder which studio this "Hollywood" exec works for. I guess you are right about one thing though..WB don't want to have anything to do with Blu-Ray that's why they voted in favor of HD-DVD when they could've easily abstained.
Regarding mass production I already posted the link above.And my point was they (BRF) don't have their act together regarding a read only (MOVIE) format...
Huh? Regular DVD recorders cost more to make because they need special electronics. Similarly BRD recorders are expensive because they have special optics and electronics. If you strip these from a BRD recorder to make a BRD player, the player will be cheaper than the recorder. It's very simple. If you only make recorders the cost won't come down as fast as stripping the extra electronics unless you make LOTS of recorders and as of right now I don't see lots of recorders despite the 13 CE companies backing it.
Uh..your logic is flawed and you're just not getting it. Just because there are no HD-DVD players on the market doesn't mean it will cost more to make compared to BRD recorders. You think the current factories making DVD players can't make HD-DVD players? Or do you think they have to build everything all over again?
What's true is true. Regardless, when will the spec be approved??? Fact is it's all guess work at the BDA camp.
It's fact that the final HD-DVD-ROM spec has already been approved so any company that wants to start producing ROM discs, they can do so. Not so with BRD. Also how do you know that by the time HD-DVD players hit the market, the BD ROM spec will be finalized? Is there some sort of deadline? Got a link? Or is this just blind faith? Regardless the only people who are gonna buy BRD recorders to record HDTV are the rich and early adopters. The majority of people will be using SL/DL DVD recorders to record SDTV because it's cheap. So in the end BRD is still going to be a tough sell because it's expensive and niche and has to compete with cheap DVD recorders. You need HDTVs to view recorded HDTV content. You think the masses are gonna just drop what they're doing and scramble to get their hands on a BRD recorder? Fact is MOST consumers are perfectly happy with DVD quality recording which is MUCH better than SDTV. Also what about DVD recorders with built-in HDDs for the few who might want to record HDTV? Can't the HDD's be used to record HDTV? You think these DVD/HDD combo units will just magically become more expensive, roll over and die?
Um...I'm afraid you just don't get it...you're obviously...lost.
Really? If I buy a BRD recorder next year it would be guaranteed to have VC-9 encoding/decoding capability?
FACT: HD-DVD players WILL have hybrid VC-9/MPEG4 AVC decoders built into HD-DVD players next year. That IS guaranteed because that is what the HD-DVD spec requires.
SONY along with a couple of investment companies are TRYING to buy MGM. NOTHING has been decided. You think ZERO studios will support HD-DVD? You must be living in a dream world.
Actually what I said was:
That statement implies HD-DVD players will be cheaper than BRD recorders based on the fact that one is a simple player while the other is a complex recorder.
And that's why I said 13 CE companies backing it means squat. Unless I see 13 different brands on the market it means NOTHING. It's always the BRD supporters that keep bringing it up even though it means nothing. I wonder why...must be because it's something to brag about with no realworld results.
Bottom line is, the HD-DVD-ROM spec has been approved while the BRD-ROM spec has not.
Movie studios don't consider let alone release movies when there is no ROM spec.
You did in a round around way, you said that the decorders where made for HD-DVD which is not true.
Since the codecs was not designed for HD-DVD any decoders that are produced is made for any hardware that chooses to use it.
All that article says that Toshiba and NEC are ready to start mass producing HD-DVD, not that they are started. They have not started mass producing HD-DVD because their is nothing to mass produce right now.
Of course it possibly could get faster and cheaper, but the point was that blu-ray could possibly get down to the same production rate. We do not know what is the limit of either format, but since HD-DVD uses production based on DVD we can safely assume that is more mature than Blu-ray and can not grow as much.
http://dvd.ign.com/articles/524/524681p1.html and in the various White Papers on the official site.
Warner voted for AOD to become the HD-DVD standard because it was the best format that was submitted to the DVD forum. Warner never voted HD-DVD over Blu-ray. If Blu-ray would have been submitted to the DVD forum and they would have voted for AOD you would have a point.
How do you figure this? The BDF is working with the studios to come up with a format that best suits the studios that is why the format has not been finalized yet.
Well the point was that Blu-ray does not have to make only recorders like you suggested with or without my flawed logic about your unrealistic situation.
Having no HD-DVD players on the market didn't have anything to do with Blu-ray costing less. What I stated was if Blu-ray could only be recorders then the part could be cheaper compared to Hd-Dvd recorders because Blu-ray recorder parts would be produced in much larger quanities than Hd-Dvd recorder parts.
But, the point is that Blu-ray makes don't have to make only recorders like you suggested.
You are right about something, the BD-Rom format is not complete and it is guess work for us. I am sure that the studios know what direction Blu-ray is going since it is relevant to them. I don't know for sure that the BD-Rom going to be finalized before a HD-DVD players hits the market, but since studios have already said that they will not release HD movies until the end of 2005 - beginning 2006 regardless of the format gives the Blu-ray camp tons of time.
Also we are comparing Hd-Dvd to Blu-ray, it has nothing to do with DVD recorders, HDD recorders or anything of that nature.
Of course I'm lost because nothing you said made sense.
I quoted you as saying that DL-DVD players could be equipped with VC-9/H.264 decoders. Blu-ray players can also be equipped with VC-9/H.264, but it is not requires just as it not required for DL-DVD players.
True, very true, never said it wasn't.
I dont know if 0 studios will support Hd-Dvd, but we do know that atleast 1 will support Blu-ray. Also, reports say that the ink is drying on the Sony/MGM deal.
Why would people have to buy a Blu-ray recorders to watch a HD Movie? Couldn't they just get a Blu-ray player that would be price about the same as a HD-DVD player.
Because these are the companies that mass produce the hardware.
Of course no sudio release movies when there is no Rom spec, but you are acting like there will never be a BD-Rom spec.
Um no...I said the decoders are being designed as we speak since you NEED to inlcude them in HD-DVD players next year.
They are hybrid VC-9/MPEG4 AVC decoders. They're not being made for BRD since BRD hasn't been finalized sorry.
Look at the date of the article. Now read the article again. Nobody said they were mass producing movies dude. The point is discs are being made in mass for companies who plan on making drives and players to test. The faster everything progresses the faster movies can be made not to mention economies of scale. Mass production provides this and again started last month.
Um no...a DL HD-DVD-ROM is 30GB. Show me a production DL DVD that is 30GB. Regardless HD-DVD manufacturing is ahead of BRD manufacturing in price, quantity, and quality. Doesn't matter if BRD eventually catches up to HD-DVD because both are heading towards the same goal of matching regular DVD manufacturing costs. HD-DVD is ahead in this game so it will reach the DVD cost target sooner. In other words, it doesn't matter if B catches A if A crosses the finish line long before B catches up.
What matters for Hollywood studios to adopt a format early on is how much it costs initially, not how much it costs in the future which no one can accurately predict. Hollywood is interested in hard evidence not future cost predictions by groups pushing their own format.
Or they could've abstained or voted against it but instead they voted in favor of it. You don't vote in favor of something if you don't believe in it. Nobody was holding a gun to the heads of WB execs.
The BDF can take however long it wants. You think the DVD Forum cares if they're (BDF) lagging behind HD-DVD? You think Hollywood cares? You think consumers care?
You can't make players without a ROM spec. So you either don't make them or you make recorders that won't be compatible with them.
And you know BRD recorders will cost less than HD-DVD recorders because?
And like I said you can't make players without a ROM spec. Is there an echo?
Of course the studios know what direction Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are going. The question is, does the BDA know what direction they're going? If they can't decide on which codecs to use for a ROM format then obviously they don't.
This is the real world and it's never ideal...
Actually this is what you said:
And what's the point of equiping BRD recorders with those decoders when the ROM spec hasn't been finalized?
It has EVERYTHING to do with HD-DVD.
First you say it has nothing to do with HD-DVD. Now you agree that it does?
Which doesn't mean much when you don't have sources...
And there are rumors that at least two studios are seriously considering releasing HD-DVD movies, your point?
And where are these mysteriously mass produced BRD recorders from 13 CE companies you speak of?
That's the million dollar question which you can't answer. If the ROM spec doesn't get approved soon then the chances of HD-DVD being adopted over BRD gets better each minute. Blu-Ray isn't racing against time, it's racing against HD-DVD. What happens if some of the BDA members companies decide to make both BRD and HD-DVD units? What happens if some companies decide to make BRD unit backwards compatible with HD-DVD for that extra marketing edge? Not so simple is it? This is the real world...
Isn't Warners one of the original members of the DVD Forum? I believe they have shares of the DVD patents.
Warren Liebfarb, the "father of the DVD," lead WB into the DVD. According to the link in the IGN story, he now runs his own company and that company was instrumental in getting VC-9 into the HD-DVD spec.
Warner would have no patent rights with BR but they may with HD-DVD.
Warren Liebfarb, the "father of the DVD," lead WB into the DVD. According to the link in the IGN story, he now runs his own company and that company was instrumental in getting VC-9 into the HD-DVD spec.
Warner would have no patent rights with BR but they may with HD-DVD.
Sorry didn't know they where making hybrid decorders, I thought they were seperate. However, as you pointed out the BD-ROM spec hasn't been approved so we don't what codecs will be approved for them. If it's only VC-9 or only H.264 added, the decoders that was so-called made only for HD-DVD won't even be used anyway. Also, we don't even know if blu-ray will use the same decoders as Hd-DVD even if both codecs are approved.
I read it again, the article was posted last month. It says nothing about mass producing anything. All it say is that it will provide sample to those people, providing samples is far from mass producing.
The point was that HD-DVD is basically DVD with blue lasers. They advertise the fact they it use pretty much the same process as dvd.
This is wrong. Why would it choose on how much it initially cost? Hollywood is worried about how much it will cost when they start making billions of disk. Also production is pretty much the lowest cost to the studios, licensing will be the major cost factor for them.
What don't you get, there was nothing else to vote for that made any sense. If they would have not voted then they would not have any HD-DVD format. Since they are not in the blu-ray camp that would have been totally stupid. So the fact they voted for it doesn't mean that they think is better than blu-ray.
Hollywood cares, if they didn't they would have chosen HD-DVD and went about their business. If the studios decide that they need a BD-ROM spec tomorrow to decide, then the BDA would approve it today. The fact is that Hollywood is not in a rush, they want the best deal.
Like I said before, of course you can't make BD-ROM players with a BD-ROM spec, but you are acting like they have to make all of their recorders/players at this moment.
The fact is I don't, I was talking about in the unreal situation that you made up. In that unreal situation Blu-ray recorders would be cheaper according to your logic about if more is made the cheaper it cost.
Like I said before, of course you can't, but you can once it is approved which will be before either group start mass producing any hardware.
The direction they are going is, is that they want to provide studios with the cheapest, most reliable, and technological advanced product they can. There is no rush to approve the BD-ROM since HD Movies is not going to start appearing to the end of next year.
The same point as equipping DVD players with them as you suggested, None.
Dude you do mock up all of your agruments like this? The statement you are quoting was a statement about HD-DVD and Blu-ray having nothing to do about DL DVD player being fitted with VC-9/AVC codecs, but you leave that part out.
If you could follow post correctly, then you would understand that I was talking about two totally different things. The first time was about DL DVD being fitted with VC-9/AVC decoders for no particular reason, and the second time was about HD-DVD players being fit with VC-9/AVC decoders.
Sources for what?
Columbia Tri-Star supporting blu-ray? http://dvd.ign.com/articles/524/524681p1.html , the same source the topic was based on and the same one I been posting. Please read it atleast once, so I don't have to keep posting it.
The ink drying on the deal? http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a5o49iWfYUDc&refer=us
HD-DVD support from any studio? Can't give a link because there is none.
Nowhere yet, I should have worded it better because some people lack understanding. These are the companies that will be mass producing the hardware.
I'm sure the BDA knows exactly when the studios needs the ROM format, and the fact is that they don't need it anytime soon.
Exactly that's why I said:
In other words they're being made SPECIFICALLY for HD-DVD.
No one knows how many HD-DVDs they've produced since May, but the fact of the matter is they have mass production facilites producing HD-DVDs since May.
And I described how BRD catching up is moot since you said:
Your arguments are shifting left and right with nowhere to go...give it up.
READ MY POST! I said EARLY adoption. WTF do you think everyone is talking about initial costs??? You think studios would release movies if the inital costs are high??? Eventual cost will come down for BOTH formats no f*cking DUH so its MOOT.
And what don't YOU get??? They didn't have to vote IN FAVOR, but they did plain and simple. You think WB wasn't aware of the BRF's competing technology??? If they thought BRD was better they would've abstained or voted against AOD. BRD is not some secret technology that the Hollywood studios know nothing about.
Of course Hollywood is not in a rush. Nobody said they were. What I said from my previous post which you conveniently ignored and shifted onto a tangent was the fact that:
If the ROM spec doesn't get approved soon then the chances of HD-DVD being adopted over BRD by Hollywood gets better each minute. Blu-Ray isn't racing against time, it's racing against HD-DVD.
As a matter of fact HD-DVD already satisfy the 9 requirements from the Hollywood studios. You think all of Hollywood is secretly lined up behind BDA waiting to jump on the Blu-Ray wagon no matter how long they take to decide which codecs to use?
The point is they're behind HD-DVD in getting a ROM spec approved no ifs or buts.
First of all it's not an unreal situation. The situation CAN happen seeing how HD-DVD players will be available next year and BDA not yet being able to decide on approving the ROM codecs. Second you admit that you don't know if BRD recorders would be cheaper than HD-DVD recorders in that situation which IS entirely possible unless you are from the future.
So now you are 100% sure it will be approved before HD-DVD hits the market? You MUST be from the future.
And how do you know 100% that movies from OTHER studios won't want to hit the market sooner than this on HD-DVD? SONY's studios sure...duh. Of course SONY which is the head of BDA are waiting for their own studios' decision. It's not rocket science. I'm talking about OTHER studios. Got any facts on that?? Didn't think so.
Um no it's not the same.
Regular DVD players could be equiped because the HD-DVD spec isn't restricted to just blue laser understand? The HD-DVD spec allows for VC-9/MPEG4 decoders to be used with regular DVD-9s if the studios feel they don't want to release or don't NEED the extra space of the slightly more expensive 30GB HD-DVDs. In this situation HD movies on DVD-9s can be played back on BOTH regular cheap red laser DVD players equipped with those VC-9/MPGE4 decoders AND the upcoming blue laser HD-DVD players. Studios love the idea that they can use regular cheap DVD-9 to store a HD movie and use a second disc for bonus material like many DVD movies that uses 2 discs. The benefit is two-fold. Existing DVD players are dirt cheap. Equiping it with HD-DVD decoders will only add little to the overal cost of the player which means many people would be able to buy it and watch HD-DVD-9s which the studios like. The fact blue laser HD-DVD devices would also be able to decode these movies is a HUGE bonus in that the studios don't have to depend on sales of these blue laser HD-DVD players to pickup in order to sell loads of HD-DVDs.It's not a mockup it's a response to this:
At this point VC-9/MPEG4 decoders have EVERYTHING to do with HD-DVD and NOTHING to do with BRD.
Which is moot read above about red laser DVD players being able to play HD-DVD-9s.
Official confirmation that MGM is 99% purchased.
That source is not proof that MGM is 99% purchased. As a matter of fact.
So the USA report is just speculation. In other words it means squat.
And no one said any studios officially stated they will, but you're living in a dream world if you think HD-DVD will have ZERO support from Hollywood.
Exactly...NOWHERE in sight, and yes they probably will be manufacturing BRD recorders eventually how many and when one knows because they haven't said anything. No point in beating that drum if nothing has been said.
PC-Engine,
Your argument is such utter rubbish. I can't wait to see you around the forum in a year... This 'war' was over before it started, HD-DVD never had a chance.
PS. I especially like the 'steamy' comment about BD-ROM/Blu Ray supporting MPEG-4-AVC for a failure fallback to HD-DVD. Talk about turning shit into a diamond.
Your argument is such utter rubbish. I can't wait to see you around the forum in a year... This 'war' was over before it started, HD-DVD never had a chance.
PS. I especially like the 'steamy' comment about BD-ROM/Blu Ray supporting MPEG-4-AVC for a failure fallback to HD-DVD. Talk about turning shit into a diamond.
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