Black Reviews are in!
- Thread starter dukmahsik
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nintenho said:
Well, they tend not to do things like take cover, make very good weapon choices, or use the alt-fires when it would benefit them. I'll play against six five-star bots in TS2 and still win by a margin of some 20-50 points (TS3's bots are a little more challenging). The only way I lose is if I play in a huge map where I can't find anyone, or I'm dickering around trying to experiment with things. In single-player, they don't do anything special at all. They do a lot of standing in one place while shooting.
Nick Laslett
Regular
nintenho said:
We will have to agree to disagree. Obviously in KZ they provide covering fire whilst flanking you. I thought that would be clear from my lengthy description. I have played through HL2, Halo/Halo2, (Far Cry demo on the Xbox the AI was pretty weak). So I don't think the AI in KZ is poor in comparision with them, when it works!
I wonder why they were invited to present at GDC if the perception was that the AI in the game was poor?
Scooby Dooby said:
I agree Scooby, there are flaws the game isn't prefect, far from it and I have experienced exactly what you describe here. But the are other sections where this doesn't happen and even running can alert your prescence to the enemy. In the final section of the Docks level your first shot puts all of the guards on alert and they start returning fire.
I have to say I think Timesplitter2 has appalling AI and in single player it is totaly scripted and just a memory test. Multiplayer with the bots is just bonkers. Set the weapons set to just fire extingushers and watch how the AI behaves. It had me in stitches. I'm not sure what Free Radical Design were thinking, the multiplayerr is a lot of fun, but the AI is just mad. Absolutely no rhyme or reason to how they behave. Capture the bag is funniest. The enemy bots all just run for your bag as do the bots on your side. It is more like a race than an FPS. When you get there bag they don't change behaviour, it's nuts. If you keep running around in TS2, the bots don't even seem to see you.
Nick Laslett
Regular
Griffith said:herr
when two guys are talking, at near distance (2-3 foot), and you kill one with the silencer, the other don't notice and remain talking
It is really funny. Some of the flaws in KZ are priceless. They made me smile, because I believed KZ was a bit rushed to compete with Halo 2. There are only something like 5 sound bites for the enemy and after 12 hours of play you have heard those 5 a lot of times. Another peach is the player death animations. You end up falling into some weird convoluted positions, or floating in mid-air:lol.
There is a similar glaring flaw in "Black". When the enemies are performing their hit animations, they don't take any additional damage. You could pump 30 rounds into them and it has no effect. It is actually easier to play the game slowly with single shots rather than as intended because of this flaw. (Managed to get my post back on topic!)
What is worse, AI not noticing someone has been shot or enemies not taking any damage? Both are equally unrealistic and fraustrating. One makes the game harder the other makes it easier.
No game is perfect.
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Nick Laslett said:
That's gotta be the most annoying thing in the world. At least with bad AI, we've seen it before and are kinda used to the annoyances (although eagle eyes are extremely annoying). An office mate of mine says the enemies in MGS3 have the same problem. I know I've seen it in other games, too, but I can't remember what they were for the life of me.
randycat99
Veteran
I just scooped me up a rental copy, and I have to say I'm having a good time, so far. The sound effects are impressive- very fullrange, dynamic, and clear (not overly compressed). The graphics are decent. The weapons look good on-screen with nice lighting effects. It isn't 60 fps grade, per se, but it does move noticeably smoother than most of its PS2 shooter predecessors (except TS2 which was a pretty smooth 60, iirc). It's really not bad, at all. I would rate it better than the motion you'll see in some 24 fps action film. So maybe it is an average 30 or a 60 with some jutters. The FOV is exactly where I like it!...nice and linear- none of that wide angle crap. Usually shooter games give me a pretty bad headache by 20 min or so, but I observed no such effect with Black. It was just fun to play with no payback in throbbing migraines.
The enemy movement does seem pretty scripted (predictable when replaying levels), but not noticeably more than any other game I've played. So I guess I've gotten used to it. The production quality is high, outside of the game play. I liked the opening CG scene- nice artistic direction. I'm digging the storyline setting- chasing down operatives in various hotzone settings corresponding to real places in the world.
It may not be the most complex shooter, but it is just right for somebody wanting to jump right in and start blasting away w/o some big training/orientation ordeal...just the thing to perk up my "lizard brain", lately. Literally, I have played not one PS2 game since early January. The last one was SotC, and I lost interest to the point of not bothering to continue at the sandworm level. So this is a nice diddy to fire up the ole PS2 to, after so long.
The engine for this game shows a lot of potential for PS2, and I could see it being the anchor to one hell of a shooter if someone wanted to invest some more complex shooter elements and enemy AI into it. It's a shame it has only got to this state right in the final swan song stages for PS2 (but at least it is a nice exit).
Fwiw, it seems a lot of people are down on this game more than it deserves. It isn't the most complex shooter, yes, but perhaps that was never its scope to begin with (sort of like blaming NFS for not being as "sim" as GT- it's still quite fun in its own way). I think, for the scope it does attempt to cover, it is quite the oiled machine.
The enemy movement does seem pretty scripted (predictable when replaying levels), but not noticeably more than any other game I've played. So I guess I've gotten used to it. The production quality is high, outside of the game play. I liked the opening CG scene- nice artistic direction. I'm digging the storyline setting- chasing down operatives in various hotzone settings corresponding to real places in the world.
It may not be the most complex shooter, but it is just right for somebody wanting to jump right in and start blasting away w/o some big training/orientation ordeal...just the thing to perk up my "lizard brain", lately. Literally, I have played not one PS2 game since early January. The last one was SotC, and I lost interest to the point of not bothering to continue at the sandworm level. So this is a nice diddy to fire up the ole PS2 to, after so long.
The engine for this game shows a lot of potential for PS2, and I could see it being the anchor to one hell of a shooter if someone wanted to invest some more complex shooter elements and enemy AI into it. It's a shame it has only got to this state right in the final swan song stages for PS2 (but at least it is a nice exit).
Fwiw, it seems a lot of people are down on this game more than it deserves. It isn't the most complex shooter, yes, but perhaps that was never its scope to begin with (sort of like blaming NFS for not being as "sim" as GT- it's still quite fun in its own way). I think, for the scope it does attempt to cover, it is quite the oiled machine.
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randycat99
Veteran
wireframe said:
Hey, I would join you in that boat (regarding KZ).
Except I don't think I am particularly picky. I've been playing this title, and I think it's a worthy game for anyone who enjoys first-person shooters.
To me, the game seems a blend of Goldeneye, Medal of Honor: Frontline, and Killzone, with a smidge of Rainbow Six and even Return to Castle Wolfenstein thrown in for good measure. Which is to say, it's recalling games I've really enjoyed, and that's definitely a good thing.
As for frame rate, I honestly hadn't even thought about it before reading this thread - a sure sign that it's totally transparent and therefore plenty fast. Which is impressive, as the audio/visual presentation of this title is pushing the PS2 very hard. Some of the explosions and environmental destruction is enough to make you grin ear to ear with pyromaniacal satisfaction.
Is the game a revolution? No, but it's a damn fine FPS that stands up to any I've played this generation, and this includes PC games as well. I'm enjoying it and am pleased with my purchase. Which is more than I can say for most games I've played recently.
Final verdict: BLACK is beautiful.
To me, the game seems a blend of Goldeneye, Medal of Honor: Frontline, and Killzone, with a smidge of Rainbow Six and even Return to Castle Wolfenstein thrown in for good measure. Which is to say, it's recalling games I've really enjoyed, and that's definitely a good thing.
As for frame rate, I honestly hadn't even thought about it before reading this thread - a sure sign that it's totally transparent and therefore plenty fast. Which is impressive, as the audio/visual presentation of this title is pushing the PS2 very hard. Some of the explosions and environmental destruction is enough to make you grin ear to ear with pyromaniacal satisfaction.
Is the game a revolution? No, but it's a damn fine FPS that stands up to any I've played this generation, and this includes PC games as well. I'm enjoying it and am pleased with my purchase. Which is more than I can say for most games I've played recently.
Final verdict: BLACK is beautiful.
randycat99
Veteran
Ah yes, those explosions are beautiful and sound terrific, as well! Bruckheimer would be proud.
Bruckheimer would be proud. Nick Laslett
Regular
I wonder what effect "Black" will have on the late adopter "casual" crowd's attitude to the PS2?
Like Burnout Revenge, it is one of those mulit-platform games where the PS2 versions is near-identical to the Xbox release.
With nobody pushing the Xbox anymore, you have a situation where the PS2 games start to look impressive again. (Most EA, Activision and UbiSoft multiplatform games all look the same now. Splinter Cell is an obvious exception) Without MS encouraging developers to exploit the Xbox, you will have carbon copy PS2 ports.
I could see EA pushing out another iteration of "Black" next year on the PS2.
I can't see Criterion wasting all the work they've put into the game engine without a few more titles using the tech. I can see a few EA titles coming next year built on this Engine, a bit like how they used the Burnout 3 engine in Batman Begins.
A lot of the bigger multiplatform francises will get at least one more outing on the PS2: Splinter Cell, Ghost Recon, Spiderman, Tony Hawks, Harry Potter, James Bond, Need for Speed, Madden, etc.
For the hardcore this generation is over, but for the casuals they've still got at least the rest of this year to go.
Due to dev's still pushing the system the PS2 could end up with the perception amongst the mainstream that it has the best looking games.
Like Burnout Revenge, it is one of those mulit-platform games where the PS2 versions is near-identical to the Xbox release.
With nobody pushing the Xbox anymore, you have a situation where the PS2 games start to look impressive again. (Most EA, Activision and UbiSoft multiplatform games all look the same now. Splinter Cell is an obvious exception) Without MS encouraging developers to exploit the Xbox, you will have carbon copy PS2 ports.
I could see EA pushing out another iteration of "Black" next year on the PS2.
I can't see Criterion wasting all the work they've put into the game engine without a few more titles using the tech. I can see a few EA titles coming next year built on this Engine, a bit like how they used the Burnout 3 engine in Batman Begins.
A lot of the bigger multiplatform francises will get at least one more outing on the PS2: Splinter Cell, Ghost Recon, Spiderman, Tony Hawks, Harry Potter, James Bond, Need for Speed, Madden, etc.
For the hardcore this generation is over, but for the casuals they've still got at least the rest of this year to go.
Due to dev's still pushing the system the PS2 could end up with the perception amongst the mainstream that it has the best looking games.
Aren't they both based on the Criterion "Renderware".
Which is not an engine per se, I believe, but more a developing environment, a "middleware".
So, maybe I should not say "based" but "done with".
Which would be like saying PES and Black are made with the same engine.
They might share some similar code for physics and particticles for example, but I think it's not as simple as Black being just a "mod" for Burnout
Or am I wrong here?
Which is not an engine per se, I believe, but more a developing environment, a "middleware".
So, maybe I should not say "based" but "done with".
Which would be like saying PES and Black are made with the same engine.
They might share some similar code for physics and particticles for example, but I think it's not as simple as Black being just a "mod" for Burnout
Or am I wrong here?
You won't find many engines that come close to what Burnout is capable of in terms of framerate and particle effects on PS2. It was a big headstart is all I know....rabidrabbit said:Aren't they both based on the Criterion "Renderware".
Which is not an engine per se, I believe, but more a developing environment, a "middleware".
So, maybe I should not say "based" but "done with".
Which would be like saying PES and Black are made with the same engine.
They might share some similar code for physics and particticles for example, but I think it's not as simple as Black being just a "mod" for Burnout
Or am I wrong here?
I agree.
I never said these Criterion games aren't pushing the PS2 to limits unseen when it launched all those years ago.
Though it's the extravagant physics imitation and smooth sense of speed that steals the show in these games imo, more than particle effects (which I think especially Burnout is not the most particle effect heavy game on PS32, there's some dust, smoke and sparks... I don't remember much else, and these too in moderate quantities) or polygon and texture detail.
You can go fast with just 15fps too, but it's a rough ride
I never said these Criterion games aren't pushing the PS2 to limits unseen when it launched all those years ago.
Though it's the extravagant physics imitation and smooth sense of speed that steals the show in these games imo, more than particle effects (which I think especially Burnout is not the most particle effect heavy game on PS32, there's some dust, smoke and sparks... I don't remember much else, and these too in moderate quantities) or polygon and texture detail.
You can go fast with just 15fps too, but it's a rough ride
um...didn't the cars get damaged?!rabidrabbit said:I agree.
I never said these Criterion games aren't pushing the PS2 to limits unseen when it launched all those years ago.
Though it's the extravagant physics imitation and smooth sense of speed that steals the show in these games imo, more than particle effects (which I think especially Burnout is not the most particle effect heavy game on PS32, there's some dust, smoke and sparks... I don't remember much else, and these too in moderate quantities) or polygon and texture detail.
You can go fast with just 15fps too, but it's a rough ride
What the engine is strong in is in having a high polygon count, decent framerate, and incredibly detailed particle effects. Also, I think I head that the physics engine would actually stream the next objects. I think Criterion said that they first used it in Far Cry and that you could have a hundred manipulatable objects at once....yeah, huh?
Yeah, but when is a particle not a particle any more but a polygon object.
Black, on the other hand looks like a particle king of PS2 land, even though I have only seen videos. Nothing can dethrone ZOE2 though, imo.
But really, let's stop this as this is pointless and I agree with you, ok.
...and I really know little, just guess
Black, on the other hand looks like a particle king of PS2 land, even though I have only seen videos. Nothing can dethrone ZOE2 though, imo.
But really, let's stop this as this is pointless and I agree with you, ok.
...and I really know little, just guess
Well okay, I don't know crap either.rabidrabbit said:Yeah, but when is a particle not a particle any more but a polygon object.
Black, on the other hand looks like a particle king of PS2 land, even though I have only seen videos. Nothing can dethrone ZOE2 though, imo.
But really, let's stop this as this is pointless and I agree with you, ok.
...and I really know little, just guess
Nick Laslett
Regular
nintenho said:
Generally Criterion iterate the Renderware "middleware" suite with each title they develop in house.
The changes made whilst developing Burnout Revenge and Black will then be incorporated into the version of Renderware offered to 3rd Parties.
It was my understanding that even after EA brought Criterion, that they were still going to operate the middleware business. At the same time EA would also increase the use of Renderware for internal development.
Too many games to mention were developed using Renderware, not just GTA. I think back in 2002 they had something like 3 games in the Top 5 for US sales all developed in Renderware.