Best 4K HDR TV's for One X, PS4 Pro

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by Rangers, Apr 29, 2017.

  1. JPT

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    C9+ ? Is there c9 and c9+ in the market?
     
  2. Pressure

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    No, it should just mean every OLED TV above (R9, Z9, W9 and E9) and including the C9 have the new Gen 2 Alpha 9 processor and four HDMI 2.1 ports. The model below still have last years processor, although in an updated variant 2nd-gen Alpha 7 (B9).

    The new gen 2 Alpha 9 has better color look up tables and processing power.

    Sorry for the confusion.
     
    #1402 Pressure, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
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  3. Jupiter

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    350 000€ for the smallest LED (146 inch). Since this screen only is FullHD it will take a long time until UHD for consumer prices.

    Sony Crystal LED (MicroLED) 2019: HUGE Display with 1000 Nits Full Screen!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaChI1WNG2M
     
  4. novcze

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    yep, consumer MicroLED is really far. Maybe double layer LCD will be here sooner. If one want true blacks and viewing angles now, it's easier to go with OLED and accept worse near black uniformity and burn-in.
    LG is supposed to come with oleds with better efficiency next year so that might help with burn-in or maybe samsung with their quantum dot oleds if they can solve backlight bleed through QD filters.
     
  5. DieH@rd

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    New Sony "double layered LCD" looks like a great alternative to other self-emissive technologies [OLED, MicroLED, self emissive QD]. For now it comes only as 31" 4K mastering screen with a spicy pricetag, but it can do wonders.


    Rollout of this tech has already started with some manufacturers.
     
    #1405 DieH@rd, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  6. BRiT

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    Is there a decent write up on QuantumDots LCD that TCL is likely to use in their 2019 set? If I even got that right. In the past the only QuantumDots I remember seeing anything about was a total non-event with a different manufacturer.
     
  7. Silent_Buddha

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    The big question is really going to be about cost. OLED is already undercutting many premium LCD sets from other manufacturers. If dual layer LCD comes in at twice the price of OLED, it's still going to be hard to justify for most people, unless their viewing habits are extremely bad for OLED.

    It's notable that Hi-Sense who make value priced sets wouldn't disclose how much their dual layer LCD set might cost.

    One thing that should in theory help keep costs under control is that the second layer only needs to be black and white or grey scale as it's only purpose is to help control how much light is emitted in black or low light sections of the screen. Additionally, it should still be fairly effective even if it was 1/4 the resolution of the color panel. On a 4k screen, the perceivable backlight bleed from not having 1:1 coverage should be miniscule.

    One drawback, however, is that it still doesn't address the uneven backlight uniformity that is endemic to LCD sets. You need a fair amount of burn-in on OLED before it approaches how bad backlight uniformity is for brand new consumer LCD sets.

    The other drawback is that it apparently makes the viewing angle even more narrow compared to current LCD panels. Obviously not a problem if you are directly centered and an appropriate distance away from the set, but could be a problem otherwise.

    It's certainly something I'm interested in. Unfortunately the only LCD panel tech where this would be applicable to me is IPS (I need the wide viewing angles). And since LG are the only ones that I'm currently aware of that are primarily using IPS for their LCD panels, I wonder if they'll risk cutting into OLED panel sales with dual layer IPS panel LCDs?

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #1407 Silent_Buddha, Aug 4, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  8. KOF

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    One big question mark for the Dual layer LCDs is "What are the group of people these products are for?"

    Consumers who wants to have thin profile in all their premium TV? No, because these ones are at least thick as plasmas which exact group of people shunned.

    Europeans who want small premium TVs? No, the power consumption (336W for the Sony H310) and heat output (The same panel that Panasonic uses uses external fans) will be out of control, it will not pass energy regulation.

    Americans who want big premium TVs? No, because any bigger than this, and power consumption will get out of hand. Also will not pass Energy Star. China seems to be ok because of lack of such tight restrictions.

    Americans who only want small premium TVs? Yeah, right. Panasonic TVs are not coming back to the US for exactly the same reason.

    Professionals who don't care about thickness, power consumtion, heat output who needs small reference calibrated monitors far more durable than OLEDs? (Sony OLED X300 BVMs can hold reference peak luminance and colors only for 12000 hours because it uses RGB, not WRGB) Yes!

    Digital artists and any other professionals who require wide angle viewing? No, even with IPS, the viewing angle limitation will compound as well which will only give 30 degrees each side before losing contrast.

    Even Hisense's 65 inches U9E use only 1080p panel for greyscale output for perhaps size, cost, power consumption, and heat reasons. That will not be competitive against OLEDs like Sony H310 at all. In the future when Hisense also goes to 4K greyscale as promised in the future, maybe, but not now. QDEF (Quantum Dot Enhancement Film) is also EOL and Quantum Dot manufacturers have failed patterning QDCF (Quantum Dot Color Filter) to LCDs (according to Jason Hartlove of Quantum Dot manufacturer Nanosys) so that leaves only OLED to continue onward with QDCC (Quantum Dot Color Converter) but Samsung Display is already having trouble with blue color contamination, it will now has to add another blue organic material and also add color filters just like the way LG Display is doing with their Kodak patents, making it identical in picture quality as LG WOLEDs while having less lifetime, an epic fail. It will probably be 2027 before Samsung will be able to clean up the contamination mess. By 2023, the LG OLEDs will not only solve IGZO burn in issues (burnout issues are something else though) but it will also overtake QDEF in color gamut.
     
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  9. KOF

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    Sorry for double posting, but I can't seem to edit my post anymore.

    Quite the opposite. LG has just announced they will be discontinuing IPS production in Korea. And with E1 plant already converted into OLED production, that leaves their recent Guangzhou plant as the only plant that will continue to produce IPS. Their IPS TVs can't compete with likes Samsung and Sony to charge premium, and they are being slaughtered left and right from the Chinese, it makes sense to give room for something that will be their only cash cow. Now, IPS will be relegated to as a placeholder while waiting for WOLED production to increase.
     
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  10. Silent_Buddha

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    OK, so that leaves OLED as the only viable display panel tech for me in the near future. That's unfortunate as it's always good to have options. While I like the better blacks on VA panels versus IPS, the narrow viewing angles just kills the tech for me.

    Here's hoping my experiment with OLED later this year turns out well. :)

    Regards,
    SB
     
  11. KOF

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    While I agree with your sentiment that more choices is a good thing, (I still miss plasmas) it's not a good idea to waste R&D and production effort on LCDs any further. They are fundamentally flawed because of their transmissive nature and do not play nicely with high end innovations. Just look at Samsung's terrible mistake that was QDCF, which did not come into fruition on LCDs because of their inability to be patterned with. It would have been cool had that come through though. Some of Samsung's plans was to combine OLED and LCD, 3 color layers of QDCF would have meant using R and G color layer with OLEDs, while using LCD for B layer. This would have helped Samsung's current QD OLED blue contamination problem immensely, as LCD blue LED has an extremely long life unlike OLEDs. This design would be further refined by using UV blue LED which would help tighten up visible spectrum and will not have look too out of place compared with OLED layer brethren. Another idea is to replace LCD layer with Micro LED layer and this will not only cut in transistor by 1/3 (as in only uses 1 LED per pixel instead of 3) but also helps immensely with yields as it would have been presented on patterned layer. Then, after EL QLED become reliable enough, those two prior OLED layers could be replaced with QDs as QDs also have blue color lifetime the shortest. (Even shorter than OLEDs) Samsung had all the masterplan present, except, they tried to veer too far away from having to buy WOLED panels from LG in the meanwhile, and that's why they failed. Their pride was their undoing.

    As of now, LG WOLEDs have far too much of an advantage over the competition because they got it right the first time. Dual Layer LCDs will remain niche because it still falls short of OLED in terms of screen thinless, flexible display application etc.
     
  12. Shifty Geezer

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    Flexible displays are irrelevant for home viewing and gaming. All that matters is image quality, thinness (can't be too fat, but doesn't need to be paper thin), price and longevity. OLED is limited in HDR. LCD is limited in backlight uniformity. Either is a viable option as long as the shortcomings can be solved and the costs kept down. I don't see anything wrong with DLLCD's.

    Are you only talking about the Sony reference monitor? The HiSense DLLCD is as thin as any other TV. The second LCD layer is thin and doesn't inherently add bulk to the TV design.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. KOF

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    It's not. Rollable OLED TVs are useful for those with limited space. Consumers are already gaming on smartphones with edge OLEDs. Manufacturers don't give a **** about what certain consumers think of relevancy as. They only care about the ones with the widest use cases. By your logic, plasmas should have stayed as they were more than fine for home viewing and gaming yet manufacturers got rid of them because they couldn't be used in mobile as well, they couldn't be used in flexible form factor, etc. so further investments in plasma was a dead end for mobile which was not the case with OLEDs.

    Compared to LCD? How so? When no LCDs have won Value Electronics TV shootout in HDR category, and only one LCD has won in Vincent Teoh's UK shootout in HDR category. (Which was questionable as he did not use Dolby Vision for LG C6 for lacking in calibration compared to HDR10) Even Sony's Z9D killer, the Z9G with 720 dimming zones and 4000 nits peak brightness has lost to the Panasonic GZ2000, HDR or otherwise.

    People don't realize contrast ratio plays the biggest part in dynamic range. Quite so many plasmas also failed to reach 100 nits SDR dynamic range (and further castrated to as low as 50 nits by ABL) , yet that didn't stop plasmas from obliterating LCDs in Value Electronics shootout. And let's not forget Dynamic range = NOT peak range alone. Otherwise, we could also claim metals have superior dynamic range than classic music.

    Oh, but your European government officials will. You Europeans have killed plasma, think the one that consumes even more in smaller size (Up to 335W for Sony's 31 inches, Up to 450W for Panasonic's 31 inches) will survive in Europe? Hisense's decision to only release in China for the time being is certainly telling.

    That's the 75 inches 8K FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) with 5300 dimming zones, not the 65 inch ones released in China which uses 4K color panel and 1080p greyscale panels together. Yes, I know. Hisense has made it confusing calling them both U9E. The Sony one is inherently thick because it needed to house fan inside to cool it down. Panasonic's panel (the originator of this tech) uses outside fans.

    You're in a minority if you think something of a plasma thickness is acceptable for today's thin TVs. That's what FALDs are currently, and Samsung, who has once made a killing with thin edge-lit LCDs, has always hated making FALDs for that reason. Stacking 2 layers of LCD will make it at least thick as CCFLs and manufacturers won't like it going back in time like that... I still clearly remember plasmas being unfairly scrutinized by LCD zealots for being too thick. It will be comical if they find it ok this time.
     
  14. BRiT

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    So 3 inches is a dealbreaker now?
     
  15. KOF

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    For the manufacturers like Samsung who live and die by thinness of the screen, yes. Samsung spends far more money than LG for design, yet is on a losing ground against LG's OLEDs for design because OLED is so much easier to make it thin and cool. TV business is a cutthroat business and manufacturers like it when their products can appeal on multitude of factors and form factor is one of them. People have drooled when LG showed off a rollable OLED at CES. And think about the endless possibilities, like an flexible OLED display magnet people can stick on fridges, a rollable projector screen replacement (coming down just like projector screens do, instead of coming up like the current model) , etc.

    I mean, for someone who doesn't give a **** about thickness of a screen, I would be interested in LLVMs too, but I woudn't be interested in a tech that's fundamentally more expensive than WOLEDs to produce, has trouble scaling up in size due to power consumption and heat output, and terrible viewing angles for the ones using Chinese/Taiwanese VA panels. LG and Panasonic are the only ones producing IPS panels, and considering the downsizing production trend for both companies...
     
    #1415 KOF, Aug 4, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  16. dobwal

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    How thin is the hisense uled xd? Reference monitors aren’t good indicators for consumer TV in terms of thinness.

    Sony’s OLED reference monitors aren’t thin either.
     
    #1416 dobwal, Aug 4, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  17. KOF

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    It will still not be an apple to apple comparison with Sony/Panasonic reference monitors as they use both 4K resolution for color and greyscale layers, but with the Hisense, 4K color layers and 1080p greyscale layers. Uniformity for the consumer Hisense product was told to be vastly poorer than the Sony HX310 reference monitor which probably benefits from panel binning. I would like to know so much about the Hisense U9E too (what are the peak brightness and exact power consumption? Methods of heat control etc) , but details are extremely sparse as it's only on sale in China.

    When I go to China in 2 months, I hope to locate this product out. (But I doubt it as I don't speak Chinese)
     
    #1417 KOF, Aug 4, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  18. Shifty Geezer

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    Rollable displays are irrelevant for home viewing. It's also doubly irrelevant in this thread about Gaming Displays. Do you think gamers are going to be prioritising the ability to roll up a display and put it out of the way over HDR, refresh rate, uniformity, contrast ratio, etc? Of course not. A display has to be suitably sized. Old CRTs are out no matter how much better their picture quality may have been because they were too damned large for any large screen. A 10mm display OTOH is no less desirable than a 1mm display. They are all below the usefully-slim threshold.

    Compared to raw potential. Your stating that because no LCD has won now, LCD is inferior, but LCD's suffer from weak contrast ratios. If you have LCDs with 1000000:1 contrast ratio and higher peak luminosity than OLEDs, you have better HDR. And the point with LCD here is that LCD can achieve both high contrast ratio and high brightness. OLED can't be amped up to 1000nits AFAIK.

    Now you sound bitter and irrational. If you want to raise a point about power efficiency, which is a fair argument, but all means do so, but don't throw it out there suddenly as a moving goalpost on why OLED is the best thing ever and LCD is teh doomed. Stick to sensible, rational arguments.

    Every search for news on the DLLCD TV shows the same TV.

    https://www.cnet.com/news/look-out-oled-hisense-unveils-dual-lcd-tv-tech-aimed-at-lower-price/
    upload_2019-8-4_21-30-36.png

    If this isn't the new tech in action, have you a photo of what the real DL LCD looks like if not this?

    For the insanely bright HDR, not because it has two layers of LCD. A TV with the same peak brightness as OLED won't run anything like as hot and won't need fans, will it? Have you seen the size of Sony's reference OLED?

    upload_2019-8-4_21-33-28.png

    Would you look at that and conclude OLED results in big, fat, ugly TVs? No? Then why do that with DL LCD instead of looking at the fundamental tech and understanding there's nothing about it requiring TVs fatter than current LCD?
     
  19. Pressure

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    That reference broadcast monitor also has a bunch of stuff a normal TV won't have, like SDI connectors, waveform/vector scope, various scan modes and support for LUTs. And powered by an FPGA.

    I'm not sure why we are comparing that screen to anything consumers would buy.
     
  20. Shifty Geezer

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    It's an example of the new Dual Layer LCD technology which demonstrates potential in the tech. None of which really applies to current buying options though. ;)
     
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