Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[Shifty Geezer]

I thought it was borked on PS3? I remember talk of tessellation happening on Cell.

 

[Globalisateur]

Based on what MS told us (particularly about their SSD, GDDR6, Navi), I think this has a good chance to be the real Anaconda and Lockhart specs.

https://pastebin.com/NUg1AqZm

Anaconda being Navi 10 with 56 CUs clocked at 1548Mhz (which is already quite a feat in a closed console with 8 Zen 2 cores clocked at 3.3 Ghz, they are allegedly and unsurpinsingly using a vapor chamber to cool the APU).

That hypothetical machine should be very powerful considering the Radeon 5700XT at 9.5 Tflops directly competes with Nvidia 2070. Maybe this could perform between Nvidia 2070 and 2080, higher than 1080.

Here Lockhart would be simply an underclocked Radeon 5700XT with 4 CUs deactivated (36 in total, so they could use the cheaper binned 5700XT chips) and 9 GDDR6 chips instead of 12 (this pastebin was before we had confirmation about a 40CUs Navi, before we had only rumors). Everything fits with what we know so far.

EDIT: Stupid me, they can't use binned 5700XT chips obviously as those are without CPU...The big problem with this leak being the Lockhart die size according to @AlBran

 

[AlNom]

Die size seems a little suspect for Lockhart though

 

[Rikimaru]

Based on what MS told us (particularly about their SSD, GDDR6, Navi), I think this has a good chance to be the real Anaconda and Lockhart specs.

https://pastebin.com/NUg1AqZm

Anaconda being Navi 10 with 56 CUs clocked at 1548Mhz (which is already quite a feat in a closed console with 8 Zen 2 cores clocked at 3.3 Ghz, they are allegedly and unsurpinsingly using a vapor chamber to cool the APU).

That hypothetical machine should be very powerful considering the Radeon 5700XT at 9.5 Tflops directly competes with Nvidia 2070. Maybe this could perform between Nvidia 2070 and 2080, higher than 1080.

Here Lockhart would be simply an underclocked Radeon 5700XT with 4 CUs deactivated (36 in total, so they could use the cheaper binned 5700XT chips) and 9 GDDR6 chips instead of 12 (this pastebin was before we had confirmation about a 40CUs Navi, before we had only rumors). Everything fits with what we know so far.

Looks believable. They could sacrifice yield to 1up PS5.

 

[Proelite]

Based on what MS told us (particularly about their SSD, GDDR6, Navi), I think this has a good chance to be the real Anaconda and Lockhart specs.

https://pastebin.com/NUg1AqZm

Anaconda being Navi 10 with 56 CUs clocked at 1548Mhz (which is already quite a feat in a closed console with 8 Zen 2 cores clocked at 3.3 Ghz, they are allegedly and unsurpinsingly using a vapor chamber to cool the APU).

That hypothetical machine should be very powerful considering the Radeon 5700XT at 9.5 Tflops directly competes with Nvidia 2070. Maybe this could perform between Nvidia 2070 and 2080, higher than 1080.

Here Lockhart would be simply an underclocked Radeon 5700XT with 4 CUs deactivated (36 in total, so they could use the cheaper binned 5700XT chips) and 9 GDDR6 chips instead of 12 (this pastebin was before we had confirmation about a 40CUs Navi, before we had only rumors). Everything fits with what we know so far.

With the 8 SEs, the number of CUs need to be a multiple of 8. So 36 CUs is impossible. 32 CUs would have been more believable.

EDIT: I might be wrong haha.

 

[RDGoodla]

Based on what MS told us (particularly about their SSD, GDDR6, Navi), I think this has a good chance to be the real Anaconda and Lockhart specs.

https://pastebin.com/NUg1AqZm

Anaconda being Navi 10 with 56 CUs clocked at 1548Mhz (which is already quite a feat in a closed console with 8 Zen 2 cores clocked at 3.3 Ghz, they are allegedly and unsurpinsingly using a vapor chamber to cool the APU).

That hypothetical machine should be very powerful considering the Radeon 5700XT at 9.5 Tflops directly competes with Nvidia 2070. Maybe this could perform between Nvidia 2070 and 2080, higher than 1080.

Here Lockhart would be simply an underclocked Radeon 5700XT with 4 CUs deactivated (36 in total, so they could use the cheaper binned 5700XT chips) and 9 GDDR6 chips instead of 12 (this pastebin was before we had confirmation about a 40CUs Navi, before we had only rumors). Everything fits with what we know so far.

The rumor above seems consistent with the other two rumors: PS5 uses HBM2 (from reddit) and PS5 is more powerful (from employee of Game Informer ).

GDDR6 consumes too much power so PS5 chooses HBM2 and they can clock the GPU higher, therefore being more powerful.



If the rumor is true then the storage is key differentiator. MS only wants to speed up the loading time, while SONY design a super fast unified SSD pool and every PS5 exclusive games can have more advanced design, especially SONY's games.

 

[Karmaprof]

Based on what MS told us (particularly about their SSD, GDDR6, Navi), I think this has a good chance to be the real Anaconda and Lockhart specs.

https://pastebin.com/NUg1AqZm

Anaconda being Navi 10 with 56 CUs clocked at 1548Mhz (which is already quite a feat in a closed console with 8 Zen 2 cores clocked at 3.3 Ghz, they are allegedly and unsurpinsingly using a vapor chamber to cool the APU).

That hypothetical machine should be very powerful considering the Radeon 5700XT at 9.5 Tflops directly competes with Nvidia 2070. Maybe this could perform between Nvidia 2070 and 2080, higher than 1080.

Here Lockhart would be simply an underclocked Radeon 5700XT with 4 CUs deactivated (36 in total, so they could use the cheaper binned 5700XT chips) and 9 GDDR6 chips instead of 12 (this pastebin was before we had confirmation about a 40CUs Navi, before we had only rumors). Everything fits with what we know so far.

There is really no proof of two Xbox models , Microsoft has already stated on the E3 Conference that they bring only one Scarlett Model next Year to the Market, for the cheaper low end Gaming Market they have already Xbox one X or S. They can bring a new 7 nm Refresh of them , so no need for a dowgraded Scarlett Model. And why do you Guys think that NextGen Consoles have only 8-10Tflops?? There are many Signals out there that they have 11-14 Tflops. MS and Sony focusing a higher Tflop Amount than Goggle Stadia(10 TFlops). And Raytracing need alot additional Floatingpoint Power and Cachememory. Also the Discussion about deactivated Cu's is complete ridiculus. It start with the "they must activated 2 Cu's " meme and now we are at 8 , some People say 40 CU 's is already enough because the Yieldrate is so much better than with 64 CU's , and a Navi CU is much more efficient than Vega or Polaris CU' s. Is that really enough? Hanging around these efficient meme Argument ? And if that so its Microsofts own fault , if they use a discrete GPU they have much better Yieldrate and a higher CU Number. In this Point why here are some people To promote permantently "APUs are the best solution" when it is in reality not, because of the
many compromises you have with it , like limited DIE Size, Clockspeed, CU Number, Yieldrate etc...?? Only focusing on a low Price is not the best answer for me as a Customer , and the Production of APUs is not so cheap like many people think. So where are the benefits of APUs beside the Question how many Dollars cost a Gaming console(399-599$)?

 

[McHuj]

And why do you Guys think that NextGen Consoles have only 8-10Tflops??

Because the 9.75 TF GPU that both consoles are based on is looking like it requires ~200W and not too mention the CPU that has around a 65W TPD as well. Both Sony and MS will need to shave off around a ~100W and it won't be by adding more Teraflops.

Now, I believe both consoles are going to be able to achieve much better power efficiency then their PC counterparts as they will be optimized for a single product and frequency target, but the gains won't be magical. Maybe we'll get a surprise and they deliver 200+ W boxes sold at a $100 loss, but I'm not making that bet.

 

[Jay]

There is really no proof of two Xbox models , Microsoft has already stated on the E3 Conference that they bring only one Scarlett Model next Year to the Market

Actually this is far from true.
And when questioned and pushed by eurogamer Mat Booty refused to say it was a single console.
To the point the interviewer had to give up and in the follow up question say whatever it is one or more consoles.... (or something like that)

There's a single project Scarlett console range, or project Scarlett is made up of a single console.
They could be hedging their bets at the moment. Or simply don't want to go into details.
In other words we just don't know, but I suspect that it's still currently 2, as it would be simpler to just say one.
Same way he said it will have a disc drive.

 

[AlNom]

something something something Brad Sams multipliers.

he fixed it.
4x lockhart, 2x anaconda
~6/~12 TF respectively.

So now one would have to wonder if it really needed fixing if the "nonsensical" 4x multiplier was just something regurgitated (thanks MS messaging! ).

And if so.... ahem. Apologies due?

 

[jlippo]

The rumor above seems consistent with the other two rumors: PS5 uses HBM2 (from reddit) and PS5 is more powerful (from employee of Game Informer ).

GDDR6 consumes too much power so PS5 chooses HBM2 and they can clock the GPU higher, therefore being more powerful.



If the rumor is true then the storage is key differentiator. MS only wants to speed up the loading time, while SONY design a super fast unified SSD pool and every PS5 exclusive games can have more advanced design, especially SONY's games.

If Ps5 uses HBM it will also have interposer, which opens interesting opportunities for multi chip designs.
Kind of doubtful to see HBM on console, although it certainly would make motherboard lovely looking.

 

[Globalisateur]

There is really no proof of two Xbox models , Microsoft has already stated on the E3 Conference that they bring only one Scarlett Model next Year to the Market, for the cheaper low end Gaming Market they have already Xbox one X or S. They can bring a new 7 nm Refresh of them , so no need for a dowgraded Scarlett Model. And why do you Guys think that NextGen Consoles have only 8-10Tflops?? There are many Signals out there that they have 11-14 Tflops. MS and Sony focusing a higher Tflop Amount than Goggle Stadia(10 TFlops). And Raytracing need alot additional Floatingpoint Power and Cachememory. Also the Discussion about deactivated Cu's is complete ridiculus. It start with the "they must activated 2 Cu's " meme and now we are at 8 , some People say 40 CU 's is already enough because the Yieldrate is so much better than with 64 CU's , and a Navi CU is much more efficient than Vega or Polaris CU' s. Is that really enough? Hanging around these efficient meme Argument ? And if that so its Microsofts own fault , if they use a discrete GPU they have much better Yieldrate and a higher CU Number. In this Point why here are some people To promote permantently "APUs are the best solution" when it is in reality not, because of the
many compromises you have with it , like limited DIE Size, Clockspeed, CU Number, Yieldrate etc...?? Only focusing on a low Price is not the best answer for me as a Customer , and the Production of APUs is not so cheap like many people think. So where are the benefits of APUs beside the Question how many Dollars cost a Gaming console(399-599$)?

I agree, but in the recent interview they dodged the questions about having more than one console and stubbornly answered twice: 'Scarlett is our console plan' :

EG: But last year Phil Spencer talked about new Xbox consoles, plural. What should we expect next year?

Matt Booty: ...Scarlett is our console plan...

EG: You did say console not consoles plan there.

Matt Booty: Scarlett is our console plan...

The moral of the story: Phil talks too much !

EDIT: beaten by @Jay

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There's a single project Scarlett console range...

It's a single console. You can't have Scarlett described as being 4x XB1X if it's two different consoles with two different specs. Most likely scenario is a smaller streaming box is planned, but after Scarlett's release so the message doesn't get confused and early-adopters know exactly what box they're buying.

 

[Rangers]

Somebody named "Matt" who is a moderator and apparently "somebody" made some interesting posts on Reset Era.

About Scarlett/PS5 debate https://www.resetera.com/threads/an...-project-scarlett.122011/page-5#post-21635606

There is a reason MS didn’t share numbers.

And
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...-ot5-its-in-rdna.120059/page-92#post-21638104

Because this shit isn’t locked yet, both parties are trying to outmaneuver each other, and anyone who tells you they know the answer to this question is lying to you, period.

Pretty much what I would expect.

Although I wasn't sure Sony was even interested in being most powerful. Probably Cerny is the one being smart and pushing them

 

[Rangers]

If Ps5 uses HBM it will also have interposer, which opens interesting opportunities for multi chip designs.
Kind of doubtful to see HBM on console, although it certainly would make motherboard lovely looking.

PS5 using HBM would be very bad for it IMO. It wont happen IMO.

HBM is what has really held back AMD GPU's for a good while IMO. It usually causes big delays in their high end chip so Nvidia just destroys them for about a year. AMD's HBM fetish is as destructive as Microsoft's pre 1X ED/SRAM fetish. And they only dropped ESRAM for 1X because you literally cant feasibly do a high performance design with it, which ought to tell you everything about it.

Another example is people wanted a cheaper Radeon Vii 8GB version...can't do it, reengineering the interposer is a huge chore (remember Radeon Vii just reused AMD's existing 16GB workstation design) , whereas with GDDR6 it's pretty modular. Although I guess this particular example would not apply to console.

Does it even have higher bandwidth than GDDR6? Barely, if so. Nvidia doesn't need it with faster GPU's.

 

[Jay]

It's a single console. You can't have Scarlett described as being 4x XB1X if it's two different consoles with two different specs. Most likely scenario is a smaller streaming box is planned, but after Scarlett's release so the message doesn't get confused and early-adopters know exactly what box they're buying.

I wouldn't rule this out.

It's just as simple to say if it was a single console they could've just said that when pressed. They are well aware of the conversation concerning the two and it would be simple to clarify that and put it to rest.

Just as easy to believe they only want to talk about Anaconda at the moment.

 

[AzBat]

Waiting for the inevitable goal post moving from both camps...

Tommy McClain

 

[MrFox]

Goal is good games, supported by whatever hardware help them be good games, an assist gets credit for the score. Been like that for 20 years as far as I remember. Not sure who moved that goal but there are peg marks on the grass.

 

[iroboto]

Somebody named "Matt" who is a moderator and apparently "somebody" made some interesting posts on Reset Era.

About Scarlett/PS5 debate https://www.resetera.com/threads/an...-project-scarlett.122011/page-5#post-21635606



And
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...-ot5-its-in-rdna.120059/page-92#post-21638104


Pretty much what I would expect.

Although I wasn't sure Sony was even interested in being most powerful. Probably Cerny is the one being smart and pushing them

That was the wavelength I got when MS pulled a complete Me - Too moment with only really discussing SSD.

E3 had huge potential for announcement and discussion and this is what they ended up with. A clear withdrawal from the confidence they had with Scorpio; cough likely because the 4pro specs leaked earlier and then they went all in on how they marketed it. So that confidence isn’t there and they are proceeding hesitantly.

Cheeky.

I think the argument lends credence that it appears both companies are still posturing for hardware position and at the very least it’s a sign that not everything yet is solidified.

 

[RDGoodla]

Because the 9.75 TF GPU that both consoles are based on is looking like it requires ~200W and not too mention the CPU that has around a 65W TPD as well. Both Sony and MS will need to shave off around a ~100W and it won't be by adding more Teraflops.

Now, I believe both consoles are going to be able to achieve much better power efficiency then their PC counterparts as they will be optimized for a single product and frequency target, but the gains won't be magical. Maybe we'll get a surprise and they deliver 200+ W boxes sold at a $100 loss, but I'm not making that bet.

If we compare other products:

NAVI 5700X 180W 7nm
RTX2070 175W 12nm
XB 1X GPU 120W 16nm (estimated)

We can find that current Navi (without any RT) has poor power efficiency even with the best 7nm process available.

In other words current Navi is unsuitable for consoles. It's likely that AMD is still optimizing Navi, or consoles use 2020 NAVI for better power efficiency. Another possible method is consoles use 7nm+ for additional power saving.